Anybody use Megasquirt to tune an NA E85 setup?

Daydreaming here...

I have an 11:1 (JE Pistons) 1.8 16V engine in my garage out of a Scirocco. Bare longblock, no accessories, etc.

I have an '80 Rabbit with a 1.6 8V running stock CIS.

I am hatching a plan to put the 16V into the Rabbit which has been done a thousand times over in VW world, but rather than making run on CIS, I am debating between hanging sidedraft carbs on it, or running ITB's. Adding MS into the mix for geek fun. I've never played with a self tuned EFI setup so this intrigues me.

So, if I'm starting from scratch anyways on an ITB or EFI conversion, why not tune for E85?

I don't see much out there for NA E85 motor setups, as there's much less gain than on a boosted setup, but I can't help but think that even on an 11:1 motor, there's power to be found in a more agressive E85 tune.

Car is a track toy, summer use only. No care given to mpg's. Dumb idea?

Not a bad idea, been done quite a few times.

Not dumb (well I'm not sure about the gains at that compression ratio but it should work), MegaSquirt has support for the Ford Flex Fuel sensor.

GameboyRMH wrote: Not dumb (well I'm not sure about the gains at that compression ratio but it should work), MegaSquirt has support for the Ford Flex Fuel sensor.

The gains at such a relatively low compression ratio would depend on overall design of the motor. Combustion chamber shape, quench area, blah blah blah.

Same reason why you see Honda motors running pump gas @ 13.5:1 compression and stuff, but you never see Miata guys doing it.

I doubt there would be a huge gain, but would be more of a measure of safety if you have a source for reliable consistent E85.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: I doubt there would be a huge gain, but would be more of a measure of safety if you have a source for reliable consistent E85.

Well I guess this is where my head is at. If there's any gain, since I'm starting from scratch, the cost of doing this vs. a 93 octane program should be negligible.

Now if I already had a finely tuned 93 octane EFI setup this might be a waste of time, but starting from nothing...

Also, I will have to do a little more homework. This engine may be 12:1. I do not recall. Was a race engine owned by a friend aquired in trade years ago, paperwork still exists somewhere.

xflowgolf wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: I doubt there would be a huge gain, but would be more of a measure of safety if you have a source for reliable consistent E85.

Well I guess this is where my head is at. If there's any gain, since I'm starting from scratch, the cost of doing this vs. a 93 octane program should be negligible. Now if I already had a finely tuned 93 octane EFI setup this might be a waste of time, but starting from nothing... Also, I will have to do a little more homework. This engine may be 12:1. I do not recall. Was a race engine owned by a friend aquired in trade years ago, paperwork still exists somewhere.

It's not really the money as much as it is the potential pain in the butt. Beyond that, you're correct, there's really no good reason to NOT do this as long as E85 is readily available in your area.

You should be able to get E99 or E100 locally, I'd probably start with J&H Oil, and you can cut it yourself to maintain a consistent E85, even in the winter months.

11:1 compression? Yeah, you can get a few more horses with E85, mainly by taking advantage of 100 octane and thus advancing the timing. You need bigger injectors as well as the fuel system to support them. And remember that ethanol is corrosive.

People have gotten over 5% more horsepower on mostly stock Coyote 5.0s by simply re-tuning for E85. The Coyotes are 11:1.

Ranger50 wrote: You should be able to get E99 or E100 locally, I'd probably start with J&H Oil, and you can cut it yourself to maintain a consistent E85, even in the winter months.

There's a J&H fairly close to my house. I won't run it in the winter though so not too concerned about cutting my own.

In reply to xflowgolf:

I was talking the main office on Chicago Dr. The stores themselves are idiotic.

Ranger50 wrote: In reply to xflowgolf: I was talking the main office on Chicago Dr. The stores themselves are idiotic.

well yeah... that's what I meant. I'm on the westside of downtown GR. Chicago Dr.'s not far.

In reply to xflowgolf:

I delivered the newspapers around GR and West Michigan for 10.5 yrs, so I know what you mean.

There's a ton of people in scca's street touring autox classes that have tuned for NA e85 use. They seem to make more power than on pump gas by advancing the timing a bunch. If its easy to get e85 near you, then why not. I'd probably use a flex fuel sensor for times when you can't find e85.

mw wrote: There's a ton of people in scca's street touring autox classes that have tuned for NA e85 use. They seem to make more power than on pump gas by advancing the timing a bunch. If its easy to get e85 near you, then why not. I'd probably use a flex fuel sensor for times when you can't find e85.

Interesting. I didn't realize there was that many out there.

anybody on here done this?

I haven't yet, but I am 100% going to when I convert the civic to fuel injection. Support for the flex-fuel sensor is also the reason that I went with the Haltech for my S2000 vs AEM/Hondata.

Yes.

14:1 naturally aspirated D16A6 feeding on E85 by way of ITB's.

sobe_death wrote: I haven't yet, but I am 100% going to when I convert the civic to fuel injection. Support for the flex-fuel sensor is also the reason that I went with the Haltech for my S2000 vs AEM/Hondata.

Haltech Pro, yes? The Sport series don't support it yet. There's a PNP pro for the S2000 that runs off cam signal instead of crank, right?

DILYSI Dave wrote: Yes. 14:1 naturally aspirated D16A6 feeding on E85 by way of ITB's.

If you don't mind sharing... what ITB's are you running, and what was your EFI management you used? Happy with your choices?

ITB's - CBR954RR
EFI - Megasquirt 2
Happy? Absolutely.

If you build to just run E85, MS will be fine. It's just a liquid that gets injected to the computer. And as long as the componets are there to run the fuel, then you'll be good to go.

FWIW, alcohol isn't any more corrosive as gas is. it's just has very different compatibilty properties. I, too, have tried to use the cheap clear tube for a trimer. Didn't last long on real gas.... Same thing.

edit- and I STILL remember seing web sites that describe how to make your own still, to make LEGAL E85. Well, they have links to get a license for the still- which is easy if you make it not drinkable. So go to the local U-pick place, get the bad apples (as it were), ferment, distil, remove water, add 15% gas, and go.

DILYSI Dave wrote: ITB's - CBR954RR EFI - Megasquirt 2 Happy? Absolutely.

Thanks!

I'm green to this so I'm doing my homework over on the Megasquirt forums.

I was also able to find some records showing my block to have 11.5:1 pistons in it. Not too shabby.

The el cheapo way it looks for me to megasquirt is to stick on a factory intake and a Passat automatic throttle body (or GM TB), along with the later 16V Digi injectors/fittings/fuel rail (or aftermarket rail/FPR). I'll have to do some math on flow rates and see if junkyard ABA 2.0 injectors will work or if there's something else I can find cheap to run.

Ideally I'd go to ITB's for the noise/bark/etc., but it seems that's where it gets pricier. Used motorcycle throttle bodies are cheap, but getting the right plenum/manifold/etc. might be tricky to do on the cheap.

Yes, lots. 5% power on low comp, 10-12% at higher compressions.

Make sure your fuel system, pump and injector size are up to the task of ~30% more fuel then the gas equivalent.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Haltech Pro, yes? The Sport series don't support it yet. There's a PNP pro for the S2000 that runs off cam signal instead of crank, right?

Yep, the PNP pro. You can get them for cheaper than the AEM too, for what I think is a more flexible tuning solution.

sobe_death wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Haltech Pro, yes? The Sport series don't support it yet. There's a PNP pro for the S2000 that runs off cam signal instead of crank, right?

Yep, the PNP pro. You can get them for cheaper than the AEM too, for what I think is a more flexible tuning solution.

Yeah we were thinking about trying to adapt the S2000 PNP Pro to the Escort, since there's two capabilities in there that i'd really like to have over the Sports, but i'm a little weirded out by using a cam trigger on a timing belt motor that'll eventually spin well over 10krpms.

mguar wrote: In reply to xflowgolf: Yes and no! The added Oxygen molecules mean more fuel will burn and the more fuel that burns the more power an engine makes.. (just dumping fuel into an engine without the added oxygen to burn the engine will make less power) So here's the deal on E85, pure ethanol has 114 octane so the 15% gasoline they add to the mix can be pretty crappy stuff and still make the required octane.. Do you want to game the system? Swing by an ethanol refinery with an empty drum and buy a drum of 100% ethanol.. Then while you're there denature it! Mix in your own gasoline so you don't need to pay the booze tax.. (Call first, I've heard not all refineries will sell single drums) I use 116 octane racing gas which I buy in those 5 gallon cans from VP fuels. I've used 112 and can't tell the difference. All you need is a gallon of gas to 50 gallons of ethanol to meet the federal requirement for denaturing it.. (2%) The other thing is E85 from pumps can vary a great deal.. it might be fresh it, might be stale, who knows? With your own sealed drums you control how fresh it is.. Having played a great deal with Webers over the decades, you need to realize that tuning Webers isn't just a matter of turning some screws.. You need to change jets, air correction meters, Chokes {we call them venturi's} etc. even a 4 cylinder can cost hundreds of dollars by the time all that is sorted out.. I'm too much of a computer luddite to tell you to use a megasquirt, but that's what I'd do.. Then it's a few keystrokes to adjust for the turbo you know you want to hang onto it.. (and hey with the high compression you won't need as big a turbo so turbo lag won't be such a big deal)

I'm confused, sir.

What does any of this have to do with the subject at hand?