I've been autocrossing my AP2 2008 Honda S2000 in C-Street this season. I admit, I still have much to learn, but in my local chapter, I'm essentially sitting in 2nd place for the season with the top spot going to a veteran driver in a fairly prepped ND2. I'm seemingly getting edged out by just a few tenths each event. I know the answer is: Drive Faster. I'm working on that part. With that said, I'm kicking around the idea of swapping out my AP2 for an ND2.
My AP2 is in great shape and with the current market, there's absolutely no doubt, I could easily sell it and have enough money to buy an ND2 cash. Although long term, the S2000 will likely keep appreciating, while the ND2 will undoubtedly depreciate, which makes this a bad financial decision. I'm fine with that part. I make plenty of bad financial decisions and I'm somehow still not bankrupt (knock-on wood!). I suppose the biggest problem is that I love my AP2 and it's hard to find a clean 08-09 in Laguna Blue if I ever regret selling it. I'm not sure how emotionally attached I would be to an ND2 by comparison... but, I digress.
Given relatively equal drivers and prep, how much of a difference is there between a late AP2 S2000 and ND2 Miata in the sport of dodging cones?
I looked at Nationals results from 2019. It looks like the ND2 took the top 8 spots, followed by a 2008 AP2 barely squeezing into a trophy spot in 9th place. This would lead me to believe there's a substantial difference between the 2 cars... but looking closer, I saw there were 25 ND2's that showed up, compared to only 3 AP2's. How much of that is the top drivers all showing up in ND2's vs the ND2 actually being that much faster? I'm still pretty convinced that the ND2 is faster, just not sure by how much of a margin on average.
Has anyone pitched both cars around cone courses that might be willing to share some feedback?
Thanks in advance!
Can't help with the car dilemma, but if I was a few tenths off the lead I would start by throwing a couple hundred at coaching.
You've hit on the crux of a lot of classing issues. I think there's not much arguing that the ND2 is the faster car, but by just how much is hard to judge when all of the top talent immediately jumps ship to the new car. You might look at results from '16 or '17 or whatever year it ws that the ND first came into the class to see if there was any crossover time when there were still top drivers in S2000s. But even that only gives you S2000-ND1 comparisons, you'd then have to go and figure out the ND1-ND2 gap. Course dependence is a factor too, IIRC when the ND1 came in there was some belief that the S2000 could still be competitive on big open courses where top end power and speed mattered. The ND2 probably covers that though, and I don't know anything about your local area but local events in general tend to be tighter and lower speed, which would benefit either of the miatas over you.
If you really like the car and think it will appreciate, I'd probably have a hard time moving unless I knew I'd also like the miata similarly. You're close enough that it might be worth putting some money/effort into making sure you've really maxed out the car prep, and/or some driver coaching of some form.
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:
Can't help with the car dilemma, but if I was a few tenths off the lead I would start by throwing a couple hundred at coaching.
I agree. I went to an autoX school just a few months back- helped me quite a bit with slaloms. I'll likely sign up for another school or 2 next year, but regionally, I believe they're all done for the year.
dps214 said:
You've hit on the crux of a lot of classing issues. I think there's not much arguing that the ND2 is the faster car, but by just how much is hard to judge when all of the top talent immediately jumps ship to the new car. You might look at results from '16 or '17 or whatever year it ws that the ND first came into the class to see if there was any crossover time when there were still top drivers in S2000s. But even that only gives you S2000-ND1 comparisons, you'd then have to go and figure out the ND1-ND2 gap. Course dependence is a factor too, IIRC when the ND1 came in there was some belief that the S2000 could still be competitive on big open courses where top end power and speed mattered. The ND2 probably covers that though, and I don't know anything about your local area but local events in general tend to be tighter and lower speed, which would benefit either of the miatas over you.
If you really like the car and think it will appreciate, I'd probably have a hard time moving unless I knew I'd also like the miata similarly. You're close enough that it might be worth putting some money/effort into making sure you've really maxed out the car prep, and/or some driver coaching of some form.
There's a few kinks with being able to draw direct comparisons with the 2 cars:
1. The S2000 was bumped down into CS in 2019, which happened to coincide with when the ND2 was released. Prior to that, the S2000 was in BS. There was a lot of success in BS for years, but by the time 2018 rolled around, the S2000 was no longer terribly competitive- one of them eeked into 11th to grab a trophy in BS in 2018, but they seemed outgunned by the Focus RS, 987 Cayman S, BMW 1M, BMW M2 and C5 Corvette. Tough to say how competitive it would have been, as most of the top drivers seemed to have abandoned the S2000 over the last few years, around the time the ND would have been released.
2. The S2000 dominated STR for years, but then, with the addition of the ND1, it became clear that the ND1 was the car to have. That tells me that the ND likely has a superior chassis when modified... but it doesn't help me much in CS. In CS, the S2000 maintains an advantage with having a bit more power (even if it's all up top- the ND is clearly much quicker below 6000rpm) and having stiffer spring rates from the factory. In STR trim, the ND picks up quite a bit of power and torque, whereas the S2000 is pretty tapped out from the factory... and on equal spring/dampening rates, the ND has more to gain than the S2000. So, it's hard for me to compare the only other class they've been in together for years (STR).
My AP2 isn't entirely maxed out for the class, but it's not bad- Karcepts front bar, light weight wheels (saved 4-5 lbs a corner), an aggressive alignment (maxed out negative camber) and oversized RE71R's. The only things left are a lighter cat-back exhaust (already ordered haha) and high-end shocks. The problem is, I've picked the brains of several of the more experienced S2000 guys on other boards and I'm not convinced that $4000 shocks will make the car much quicker in CS. In the past, there has been at least 1 National champion (at least 1, I've heard possibly more in the early years) in BS running an S2000 on OEM shocks, and several of the fastest S2000's at Nats that have trophied have also been on OEM shocks. Being able to adjust them to tailor my driving style might help a bit, but it would also give me another variable to botch something up!
I have went to an autoX school a few months back. I plan on going to more in the future, regardless of the car I'm driving.
Any chance your ND2 guy will let you codrive his car at an event or two? Or swap cars for fun runs?
Looking through old Nats results, it looks like the last time the S2000 had a lot of support in Street, was in BS in 2015, when the AP2 took the top 2 spots. What's more interesting is that the ND hadn't been released yet and the top 3 cars in CS (FR-S and x2 NC2's) were all marginally quicker than the quickest S2000 in BS... the year before that (2014), it looks like an AP2 took 2nd in BS, and yet, was still marginally bested by an NC2 (and a 370Z!) in CS that year. I own both an AP2 S2000 and a 2009 NC2... granted, my AP2 is definitely more prepped than my NC2... but I'm kind of shocked to learn the NC2 looks to have similar potential as the AP2 in Street, judging from years prior to the ND being released.
In 2015, the CS Nats Champion was Dave Ogurn in a 2013 Scion FR-S (combined times of 122.152)... who beat at the BS Nats Champion Andrew Smedegard (combined times of 123.009)... the next year (2016), the ND was released. Ogburn took 4th (122.372), behind 3 ND1's (top with a 121.472). Top S2000 in BS that year was quicker than all of them (119.834). Maybe they ran on different days and courses were better/worse? Who knows. I did notice that Ogburn bought an ND1 the next year and many of the top rated S2000 drivers in previous years seemed to switch platforms...
Judging by previous years, it's tough to tell.
With no Nats in 2020, it'll be interesting to see if anything changes this year in CS.
WonkoTheSane said:
Any chance your ND2 guy will let you codrive his car at an event or two? Or swap cars for fun runs?
If we have a test-n-tune day and he's attending, I was planning on asking him to swap cars for a few runs and maybe do some ride-alongs with each other.
roninsoldier83 said:
dps214 said:
You've hit on the crux of a lot of classing issues. I think there's not much arguing that the ND2 is the faster car, but by just how much is hard to judge when all of the top talent immediately jumps ship to the new car. You might look at results from '16 or '17 or whatever year it ws that the ND first came into the class to see if there was any crossover time when there were still top drivers in S2000s. But even that only gives you S2000-ND1 comparisons, you'd then have to go and figure out the ND1-ND2 gap. Course dependence is a factor too, IIRC when the ND1 came in there was some belief that the S2000 could still be competitive on big open courses where top end power and speed mattered. The ND2 probably covers that though, and I don't know anything about your local area but local events in general tend to be tighter and lower speed, which would benefit either of the miatas over you.
If you really like the car and think it will appreciate, I'd probably have a hard time moving unless I knew I'd also like the miata similarly. You're close enough that it might be worth putting some money/effort into making sure you've really maxed out the car prep, and/or some driver coaching of some form.
There's a few kinks with being able to draw direct comparisons with the 2 cars:
1. The S2000 was bumped down into CS in 2019, which happened to coincide with when the ND2 was released. Prior to that, the S2000 was in BS. There was a lot of success in BS for years, but by the time 2018 rolled around, the S2000 was no longer terribly competitive- one of them eeked into 11th to grab a trophy in BS in 2018, but they seemed outgunned by the Focus RS, 987 Cayman S, BMW 1M, BMW M2 and C5 Corvette. Tough to say how competitive it would have been, as most of the top drivers seemed to have abandoned the S2000 over the last few years, around the time the ND would have been released.
2. The S2000 dominated STR for years, but then, with the addition of the ND1, it became clear that the ND1 was the car to have. That tells me that the ND likely has a superior chassis when modified... but it doesn't help me much in CS. In CS, the S2000 maintains an advantage with having a bit more power (even if it's all up top- the ND is clearly much quicker below 6000rpm) and having stiffer spring rates from the factory. In STR trim, the ND picks up quite a bit of power and torque, whereas the S2000 is pretty tapped out from the factory... and on equal spring/dampening rates, the ND has more to gain than the S2000. So, it's hard for me to compare the only other class they've been in together for years (STR).
My AP2 isn't entirely maxed out for the class, but it's not bad- Karcepts front bar, light weight wheels (saved 4-5 lbs a corner), an aggressive alignment (maxed out negative camber) and oversized RE71R's. The only things left are a lighter cat-back exhaust (already ordered haha) and high-end shocks. The problem is, I've picked the brains of several of the more experienced S2000 guys on other boards and I'm not convinced that $4000 shocks will make the car much quicker in CS. In the past, there has been at least 1 National champion (at least 1, I've heard possibly more in the early years) in BS running an S2000 on OEM shocks, and several of the fastest S2000's at Nats that have trophied have also been on OEM shocks. Being able to adjust them to tailor my driving style might help a bit, but it would also give me another variable to botch something up!
I have went to an autoX school a few months back. I plan on going to more in the future, regardless of the car I'm driving.
Oh right I forgot they were never actually in the same class, that definitely makes it harder.
I know some people have run aftermarket dampers on the S2000 and liked them. I was never impressed with the stock dampers but I have almost zero seat time and what little I did have was in an AP1 so I don't know how that compares. I'd guess aftermarket is an improvement, but probably not $4k worth of improvement. You could try different tires, the current bunch of tires are all at least arguably faster than RE71R and with some options for driving feel/handling characteristics. You might find that different tires fit the car and/or your style better which can unlock some time even if they don't actually have any more ultimate grip than you have now.
dps214 said:
roninsoldier83 said:
dps214 said:
You've hit on the crux of a lot of classing issues. I think there's not much arguing that the ND2 is the faster car, but by just how much is hard to judge when all of the top talent immediately jumps ship to the new car. You might look at results from '16 or '17 or whatever year it ws that the ND first came into the class to see if there was any crossover time when there were still top drivers in S2000s. But even that only gives you S2000-ND1 comparisons, you'd then have to go and figure out the ND1-ND2 gap. Course dependence is a factor too, IIRC when the ND1 came in there was some belief that the S2000 could still be competitive on big open courses where top end power and speed mattered. The ND2 probably covers that though, and I don't know anything about your local area but local events in general tend to be tighter and lower speed, which would benefit either of the miatas over you.
If you really like the car and think it will appreciate, I'd probably have a hard time moving unless I knew I'd also like the miata similarly. You're close enough that it might be worth putting some money/effort into making sure you've really maxed out the car prep, and/or some driver coaching of some form.
There's a few kinks with being able to draw direct comparisons with the 2 cars:
1. The S2000 was bumped down into CS in 2019, which happened to coincide with when the ND2 was released. Prior to that, the S2000 was in BS. There was a lot of success in BS for years, but by the time 2018 rolled around, the S2000 was no longer terribly competitive- one of them eeked into 11th to grab a trophy in BS in 2018, but they seemed outgunned by the Focus RS, 987 Cayman S, BMW 1M, BMW M2 and C5 Corvette. Tough to say how competitive it would have been, as most of the top drivers seemed to have abandoned the S2000 over the last few years, around the time the ND would have been released.
2. The S2000 dominated STR for years, but then, with the addition of the ND1, it became clear that the ND1 was the car to have. That tells me that the ND likely has a superior chassis when modified... but it doesn't help me much in CS. In CS, the S2000 maintains an advantage with having a bit more power (even if it's all up top- the ND is clearly much quicker below 6000rpm) and having stiffer spring rates from the factory. In STR trim, the ND picks up quite a bit of power and torque, whereas the S2000 is pretty tapped out from the factory... and on equal spring/dampening rates, the ND has more to gain than the S2000. So, it's hard for me to compare the only other class they've been in together for years (STR).
My AP2 isn't entirely maxed out for the class, but it's not bad- Karcepts front bar, light weight wheels (saved 4-5 lbs a corner), an aggressive alignment (maxed out negative camber) and oversized RE71R's. The only things left are a lighter cat-back exhaust (already ordered haha) and high-end shocks. The problem is, I've picked the brains of several of the more experienced S2000 guys on other boards and I'm not convinced that $4000 shocks will make the car much quicker in CS. In the past, there has been at least 1 National champion (at least 1, I've heard possibly more in the early years) in BS running an S2000 on OEM shocks, and several of the fastest S2000's at Nats that have trophied have also been on OEM shocks. Being able to adjust them to tailor my driving style might help a bit, but it would also give me another variable to botch something up!
I have went to an autoX school a few months back. I plan on going to more in the future, regardless of the car I'm driving.
Oh right I forgot they were never actually in the same class, that definitely makes it harder.
I know some people have run aftermarket dampers on the S2000 and liked them. I was never impressed with the stock dampers but I have almost zero seat time and what little I did have was in an AP1 so I don't know how that compares. I'd guess aftermarket is an improvement, but probably not $4k worth of improvement. You could try different tires, the current bunch of tires are all at least arguably faster than RE71R and with some options for driving feel/handling characteristics. You might find that different tires fit the car and/or your style better which can unlock some time even if they don't actually have any more ultimate grip than you have now.
Yeah, if I stick with the S2000, I'll probably end up with a set of A052's. The only problem being I still have plenty of tread left on my RE71R's. I'll probably run them a bit longer to try and extract some more life out of them before I switched over to the A052's.
