Aristocrat class, Luxo-barges overwhelm the 2015 Challenge...

Kreb wrote: It might be a bit of a buzz kill if the mouse that someone has been trying to make roar gets stomped by a stock Infiniti racing with A/C on and stereo blaring.

I believe that depends on which car you happen to be driving.

I happen to believe that MOST of the challenge entries to date have used a "buy a small car, add cheap power and suspension" formula, and many have been quite successful. I also happen to believe that challenging that formula and going with a "buy a car with already big motor and remove" is an innovative solution to the problem, and may bring some serious entries.

The fact that more than a few teams are taking the second approach this year just makes it more fun.

Here's a nice candidate for this 'class'! NMNA

http://staugustine.craigslist.org/for/5166521245.html

black 1990 BMW 750iL v12 5.0L, it has tint, sunroof , surround stereo, black leather interior, ecu chips, msd ignition, and a aftermarket stereo head unit. On the magnificent m70 v12 motor it has shogun ecu chips, msd ignition, and magnapack glasspack exhaust, it has good tires, recent tune up & new starter, all maintenance has been done it drives great. clean title in hand 1400 obo call or text

priced to sell, someone come and get it, its really a great deal.

I was fixin' to enter a 98 BMW 323iS, then the bitch had the nerve to catch on fire, so I bailed. I guess that's why E36 means what it does here.

Mice will still roar. The top of the heap will be a fabricated Big Block MGB battling a fabricated Big Turbo Miata.
Somewhere back in the cheaper seats another fierce battle will brew.

dyintorace wrote: Here's a nice candidate for this 'class'! NMNA http://staugustine.craigslist.org/for/5166521245.html black 1990 BMW 750iL v12 5.0L, it has tint, sunroof , surround stereo, black leather interior, ecu chips, msd ignition, and a aftermarket stereo head unit. On the magnificent m70 v12 motor it has shogun ecu chips, msd ignition, and magnapack glasspack exhaust, it has good tires, recent tune up & new starter, all maintenance has been done it drives great. clean title in hand 1400 obo call or text priced to sell, someone come and get it, its really a great deal.

The shogun ecu chips are reported on bimmer boards to be better than the dinan chips I got. I believe the shogun chips also included trans chips and redline bump, which the dinan chips do not have.

BTW, if mine blows up before the event, arrive and driving another is high on my backup plan list.

You all are making wish I had called on the $1200 v6 manual Lincoln LS that showed up on Craigslist 3 months ago.

I don't mind the gimick aspect of the sub-class. The thought the point of this event was low $$ fun. Sounds like that is happening.

I wonder if a Subaru SVX would have qualified for this...

It was the most luxurious Subaru or it's day (maybe ever). Built for doctors and lawyers.

OK, not a "barge". More of a "Gran Tourismo". But I've got the original window sticker for my 1990 racer- $36,000 in 1990. That same year, a fully loaded Cadillac Coupe Deville sold for $28,106.

I think I've already done the "bigger car, bigger, engine" thing. It was actually a different formula, but pretty easy to work with... The parts I removed had a high value which helped with my recoup. I placed 13th in 2004, with a really huge group of contestants (like twice as many as 2014).

JohnRW1621 wrote: Mice will still roar. The top of the heap will be a fabricated Big Block MGB battling a fabricated Big Turbo Miata. Somewhere back in the cheaper seats another fierce battle will brew.

Did you just put Easy Transit North vs Easy Transit South?

It's actually a pretty small turbo!

In reply to SVreX:

What you say about Concourse is correct.
I may have not been thorough in my explanation but what I was thinking when I wrote it was that this type appearance will likely get you a low Concourse score.

I also wrote earlier that I felt I found a formula last year. I am not fully exposing what that formula was and I am being intentionally vague. Sure, we both know that faster cars were beat by both the Infiniti and the Fiero but they both had a unique formula. Lets just call that formula "editorial content."

WillrunifChased wrote:

SVreX wrote:

JohnRW1621 wrote: A great thing about The Challenge is that both speed and appearance count. Each competitor will need to decide if the increased points in speed will make up for the possible decrease in points for appearance.

That's not quite accurate. Cars are NOT judged for appearance. Cars are judged on innovation, execution and presentation. Honestly, a stock interior with no effort shows pretty much zero innovation or execution. Might have some presentation if it's nice. If the car was once a chicken coup but has been restored to factory condition (and you can prove it), it will earn some points. A well executed gutted interior with everything cleaned up and presented well might earn a higher score on the Concours then an unmolested factory interior. The "appearance" thing is a misunderstanding that gets a lot of people tripped up. They think paste wax on the exterior and vacuum on the interior scores them points, but neither of those things show much innovation or execution.

This is true, really need to have a good story. I think some people were disappointed to finish behind the Fiero last year in the concours. Especially considering we spray painted the car in the hotel parking lot and had to tape off around the stickers to finish the painting.

If that is really the case, that's more of a reason not to come back. I'm not interested in having a car with a theme, I was interested in making a nice looking car go fast with as little dollars as possible.

Other than an Alfa of some type, my other project would make the best CSP Miata as I possibly could, and let someone take it to the Solo nationals.

If a theme is needed to be competitive, like Lemons, I see no point in it- there's no theme in my cars.

Kinda sucks.

alfadriver wrote: If that is really the case, that's more of a reason not to come back. I'm not interested in having a car with a theme, I was interested in making a nice looking car go fast with as little dollars as possible. Other than an Alfa of some type, my other project would make the best CSP Miata as I possibly could, and let someone take it to the Solo nationals. If a theme is needed to be competitive, like Lemons, I see no point in it- there's no theme in my cars. Kinda sucks.

Not really a theme but a history of the car, how it got there and why it is special.

In reply to JohnRW1621:

OK. Go ahead and use my car as an example of poor Concours effort! (You're right).

But let me take that further...

We would have done badly with that car, but NOT because it looked like crap. It's because we put so little effort into it.

We called it "The Ratty Caddy". Came straight from a junkyard, welded an inverted Subaru rear bumper on, a set of off-road lights, chained the hood shut, and GO!.

But, if we had taken the theme further... pull the interior, milk crate driver's seat, gun shot holes, mis-matched hubcaps, poorly tinited windows, etc. etc. etc. (actually WORK at making it Ratty), we could have done better on the Concours than with a stock interior. Would not have rivaled Gutty, but it is actually possible to earn more Concours points with crapped out than with stock. The point is effort and innovation, NOT pretty.

In reply to alfadriver:

Theme will not win you the event. The winners are still well executed builds but take Team Gutty for example, they have always had a solid theme (and a solid build.)
Last years #1 in autox, #1 in Concourse and 2nd overall

alfadriver wrote: If that is really the case, that's more of a reason not to come back.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but it is the case. I did not make it up, I quoted the rules as currently written.

Eric, it takes all kinds. You don't need a theme to score Concours points, but you do need innovation, execution, and presentation. I would say, for example, that Mike Guido generally accomplished those goals with no theme (but LOTS of effort).

If you buy well and bring something nice as-is, you can go fast, but it will be hard to win overall. You won't have enough Concours points. If you bring a rusted out shell from the junkyard and restore it to factory condition (appearance), you will do fine on the Concours.

Your Alfa would have done pretty well in the Concours.

The event is still strongly weighted for speed. 75% of the score is speed. 25% is Concours.

The Concours is all about effort, and story.

SVreX wrote:

alfadriver wrote: If that is really the case, that's more of a reason not to come back.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but it is the case. I did not make it up, I quoted the rules as currently written.

Rex, I know you feel strongly about this, but I would like you to be careful how you are representing your understanding of the rules. I do not see where you quoted the rules directly, and I do think this is one of the ways that rumors about the rules get started.

Here are the actual rules relating to the subject:

GRM Challenge rules said: New for 2014 will be the parc expose. Cars will be parked in a centralized location, with hoods, trunks and doors opened for the judges and competitors to view. Entrants will have a maximum of 2 minutes to present their cars and share their story with the judges. Cars will be judged on innovation, execution and presentation, and scoring will be as such: - Innovation: 0-10 points - Execution: 0-10 points - Presentation: 0-5 points - “Innovation” covers things like design, engineering, creativity and modifications. - “Execution” covers things like cleanliness, workmanship and attention to detail. - “Presentation” covers things like originality, theme, showmanship, team spirit, moxie, chutzpah, backstory or anything else that falls under the heading of “je ne sais quoi.”

And

GRM Challenge rules said: Cars should have a finished appearance. Use good sense and taste when you modify your car, as missing grilles, headlights, fenders, hoods and the like are generally unattractive. Cars that are ugly will be less likely to be featured in the magazine and other media. Please remove your front license plate and plate holder, as those things are ugly, too. GRM will provide number panels to all entrants. If you have a theme that doesn’t work with these panels, then concessions can be made. Please discuss with the GRM staff prior to the event. GRM reserves the rights to require a windshield banner.

and

GRM Challenge rules said: The dynamic score from the challenge will be calculated by adding the competitor’s fastest drag time and fastest autocross time together. This will give their “dynamic time.” The lowest dynamic time is worth 100 points. Points for second and subsequent places are determined by dividing the winning time by each other time, then multiplied by 100. For example, if the winning combined dynamic time is 74.2 seconds and second place is 75.0 seconds, the 74.2-second driver receives 100 points, while second place gets 98.9 points (74.2/75.0 = .989 x 100 = 98.9). The maximum parc expose score is 25 points. Maximum possible total score is 125. Best score wins the overall trophy.

Listed here: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/events/2015-challenge-rules/

In reply to rcutclif:

I don't feel that strongly about it.

You just quoted a longer version of the exact same thing I did. In the middle of your first quote is what I wrote previously:

GRM Challenge rules said said: Cars will be judged on innovation, execution and presentation...

The word "appearance" is not in there (at least not in your first quote).

You and I both quoted the rules directly.

Jon Haas' '49 Chevrolet coupe would have done well in the Concours.

It wasn't pretty, and had not seen a can of paste wax in at least 40 years.

Still totally awesome.

SVreX wrote: In reply to rcutclif: I don't feel that strongly about it. You just quoted a longer version of the exact same thing I did. In the middle of your first quote is what I wrote previously:

GRM Challenge rules said said: Cars will be judged on innovation, execution and presentation...

The word "appearance" is not in there (at least not in your first quote). You and I both quoted the rules directly.

It's not the things you said that were in the rules (and admittedly I did miss your quote), its all the things you said that were NOT in the rules but yet represented that they were.

One example is "75% of the score is speed, 25% is concours".

That is all I am asking you to be careful about.

Just going to leave this here...

https://cleveland.craigslist.org/cto/5190625404.html

WillrunifChased wrote:

alfadriver wrote: If that is really the case, that's more of a reason not to come back. I'm not interested in having a car with a theme, I was interested in making a nice looking car go fast with as little dollars as possible. Other than an Alfa of some type, my other project would make the best CSP Miata as I possibly could, and let someone take it to the Solo nationals. If a theme is needed to be competitive, like Lemons, I see no point in it- there's no theme in my cars. Kinda sucks.

Not really a theme but a history of the car, how it got there and why it is special.

So being fast and good looking isn't good enough? That seems special enough.

SVreX wrote: The Concours is all about effort, and story.

Why? I'm penalized if I find a great Miata for $1500 and turn it into a car that can top 10 nationally in Topeka but don't have to do anything beyond polish the car?

But if I find a POS one for $1500, and produce the same thing I get extra credit?

that makes no sense at all.

In reply to rcutclif:

Good grief. So, now we are going to argue about the rules that do NOT exist?? Way to take what I said out of context.

I said:

The event is still strongly weighted for speed. 75% of the score is speed. 25% is Concours.

It was not intended as a mathematical formula. It was intended as an encouragement to a great former competitor (Eric) who expressed discouragement about the essence of the Concours (it's not actually called a "Concours" either, if you really want to split a few hairs).

The correct math can easily be calculated from the rules for anyone who cares.

No one has EVER had the Concourse count for 25% of their final score. It has always been less than that.

The maximum possible appears to be 20% if you win the overall. Gutty last year (with a perfect Concours score) did better than that- they scored 20.6%. So, it is technically possible to score higher than 20% if you do exceptionally well in the Concours, but do not win the overall.

For the other top 5 finishers, the Concourse only equaled 18.2%, 18.6%, 16.7%, and 19.2% of their total scores. Does it make you happier for my math to be more accurate?

My point still stands. Eric, the event is strongly weighted for speed, and your Alfa would have scored well in the Concours (and been a contender for an overall win). I hope you will consider coming back soon, because you are a great asset. In 11 years of playing this silly game, your car is still one of my favorites.

alfadriver wrote:

SVreX wrote: The Concours is all about effort, and story.

Why? I'm penalized if I find a great Miata for $1500 and turn it into a car that can top 10 nationally in Topeka but don't have to do anything beyond polish the car? But if I find a POS one for $1500, and produce the same thing I get extra credit? that makes no sense at all.

Yep.

Because the magazine is trying to generate stories.

Turboed Alfa driven to an autoX win by the owner (not a pro) was a good story.

Correct.

Swank Force One scored incredibly low on the concours, despite being a fairly clean car and put together well.

Why, though? Because any moron can build one as i did and that's exactly how i presented it. "Well... i scavenged a bunch of parts from parted out Probes and junkyards, and bolted them to the car. And now it's fast. You like?"

Wow, this thread got off topic quick. My car has been voted into the "class", but I'm building it the way I want to. It won't be super pretty, but it will be as clean and neat as I can make it. I'm going for more speed, but don't expect Lexan or welded shut doors. I wanted to build a quick sleeper Maxima that could also serve as my DD, I'm not building to this new "class". I don't expect to win, just have fun in the car that I built the way I wanted to. The beauty of the rules is that they allow someone to go either way: a "theme", or an all out crazy fast machine. Both ways have their shortcomings, the point is to have fun and see if you can do well enough in all 3 categories to take the win. To each his own, it shouldn't dissuade anyone from coming to the event.