Article suggestion, no idea, no make that demand!

Well, I've met a fair number of staff from the magazine including the person I think Gary is referring to, both by dropping in on their world headquarters unannounced because we were at the in-laws place and I needed reading material, and at their stand at Laguna Seca.

I've found everybody I met amongst the most approachable and nice folks for a socially awkward person like me, and ain't exactly "important" like Jay Leno. Don't have the chin for it.

So Gary, you may have caught someone on an off day (we all have those), but to me as a third party it just looks like you now carry a massive chip on your shoulder because of it. Really, why bother? Life's too short for that. Move on.

BoxheadTim wrote: Well, I've met a fair number of staff from the magazine including the person I think Gary is referring to, both by dropping in on their world headquarters unannounced because we were at the in-laws place and I needed reading material, and at their stand at Laguna Seca. I've found everybody I met amongst the most approachable and nice folks for a socially awkward person like me, and ain't exactly "important" like Jay Leno. Don't have the chin for it. So Gary, you may have caught someone on an off day (we all have those), but to me as a third party it just looks like you now carry a massive chip on your shoulder because of it. Really, why bother? Life's too short for that. Move on.

+1, exactly what I was trying to say, thanks..

Gary wrote: What we need less of is "100 things you must do in Monterey during The Big Week" (when only a handful of readers actually attend) or 4-5 pages of social pictures during The Mitty or Daytona parties (when only the people who attend might want to see a few pictures), and countless other meaningless filler material in the magazines.

I dont necessarily agree with anything else Gary wrote, but I agree with this.

If I wanted to read about stuff other than cars/racing, I'd pick up a people magazine.

I am curious what info grm has to suggest people subscribing to grm like these sorts of articles? These articles have become more and more common. Hell, even sema stuff and pri, I can find all that information on a website somewhere.

I pay you guys (via my subscription) for your opinion on cars, or on your detailing an actual car event. Not to be shown the pretty pictures of an entertainment festival (note I didnt say automotive event) with some captions below them. I really dont care if the food at (insert event here) was good.

I am trying to be constructivr with my criticism. Constructive does not have to be positive. I do love the ultimate track car challenge and the $2xxx challenge. Those alone are worth the subscription :)

Skierd asked me what my exemplar publication is. I subscribe to a lot of car magazines but not all of them are in the same category as GRM or CM, or have the same target audience. So I think it's more appropriate to give an example of a magazine I like that is basically technical, and offers the type of detailed, "meaningful content" that I've been referring to, and that would be Hot Rod Magazine. You don't have to like hot rods or street rods to appreciate the amount of detailed content they pack into every issue. You really feel like you're getting your money's worth from the hard copy magazine. And that's really the heart of the issue with me. I'd really like to see GRM and CM have that kind of detailed meaningful content.

HiTempguy wrote:

Gary wrote: What we need less of is "100 things you must do in Monterey during The Big Week" (when only a handful of readers actually attend) or 4-5 pages of social pictures during The Mitty or Daytona parties (when only the people who attend might want to see a few pictures), and countless other meaningless filler material in the magazines.

I dont necessarily agree with anything else Gary wrote, but I agree with this. If I wanted to read about stuff other than cars/racing, I'd pick up a people magazine. I am curious what info grm has to suggest people subscribing to grm like these sorts of articles? These articles have become more and more common. Hell, even sema stuff and pri, I can find all that information on a website somewhere. I pay you guys (via my subscription) for your opinion on cars, or on your detailing an actual car event. Not to be shown the pretty pictures of an entertainment festival (note I didnt say automotive event) with some captions below them. I really dont care if the food at (insert event here) was good. I am trying to be constructivr with my criticism. Constructive does not have to be positive. I do love the ultimate track car challenge and the $2xxx challenge. Those alone are worth the subscription :)

May as well pile on the constructive criticism here a bit. I subscribe to CM and GRM and will continue to. I also subscribe to Car Craft and Hot Rod and may continue to depending on their changes.

If I am in a race, I love reading coverage of it. I still have articles about lemons races I was in. I do not like reading about other races. This is completely selfish, and I recognize that. Since the mags are pretty big, I skip over the stuff I am not interested in, but am still happy the race coverage is in there.

Coverage of social events is pretty silly, and I don't read it. I don't mind it being there, but yeah, it's not a good read.

As far as the prices in CM, they are discouraging, but there are real people out there paying real money for those cars. It's good that we can get coverage of it. It's not CMs fault that I can't afford nay cool classic cars, so I still enjoy reading about them.

I will say to gary that I read his favorite magazine and do not hold them above GRM or CM. If asked to choose, the Hot Rod and Car Craft subs would lapse first.

I hate missing these threads, but yesterday I was at my grandma's funeral. While throwing a shovelful of dirt into her grave, I had a minor epiphany the moment the dirt hit her casket: You only get to take one lap of the track, so make it a good one.

My grandma lived nearly 97 years and got to enjoy most of them despite being dealt some bad hands. She lost her husband early in life. She also buried a son, which is something no mother should have to do.

However, my grandma enjoyed helping those less fortunate and did much charity work. She was generous towards her family. She also enjoyed games of chance and ate dessert first if she so desired.

And if she didn't like you, she simply moved along.

tuna55 wrote: If I am in a race, I love reading coverage of it. I still have articles about lemons races I was in. I do not like reading about other races. This is completely selfish, and I recognize that. Since the mags are pretty big, I skip over the stuff I am not interested in, but am still happy the race coverage is in there.

Blech, yeah, event coverage is a can of worms. I suspect that most people feel the way you do, and we try to just give an overview of any event for that reason... but when it's an event we put on for readers, there is an implicit promise that they'll also get to be part of the magazine by attending. When we shortchange our own event coverage we get a lot of outraged "It was even YOUR event yet you chose to slight...." letters from people who point out they were nice enough to come support us, but feel they got the shaft.

As I mentioned, we have been reading the criticisms (thanks everyone) and you'll already see less of "our" stuff in news and such. We tend to forget that if the event department places ads in the magazine, we don't need to constantly let people know in the editorial about what's going on. And ironically, several of the ideas in here are already things under way. Guess that's good because it means we're on the same page.

So yeah, you can't please all of the people all of the time, but you can damn sure try. Points noted, effort applied. Tim, however, will probably still continue to be a shiny happy person to people he doesn't like, despite my efforts to charm school him. It's all part of his bullE36 M3 fakeness.

Margie

Honestly I let my subscription to GRM lapse. It isn't anything against GRM. I think it is a really well done magazine but I just have found my interest in many of the articles slipping. That is more about my interest changing then the magazines content changing. I still buy individual magazines off and on. If you do the article suggested I would buy that magazine.

I do continue to subscribe to Classic Motorsports because IMHO it is easily best classic car magazine in the US. So keep up the good work GRM/CM, I love your work and especially your events!

Marjorie Suddard wrote: ...event coverage is a can of worms...

It certainly is, I've been finding when dealing with our club racers that people like hearing about paddock area, weekend fixes that occur and different methods, platforms and approaches that teams and cars use in attempt to get around a track or course as quickly as possible. Often time results don't tell some of the more interesting tales of an event.

David S. Wallens wrote: And if she didn't like you, she simply moved along.

First of all, my condolences. I am sad for your loss :(

Now, onto the business end of this post Well, I guess I won't bother to resubscribe. Maybe I'll just buy the GRM 2k and utcc mags.

What Mr. Wallens posted (as far as I am concerned) is the very definition of hubris in regards to magazines. All customers matter, and nobody here has been calling GRM "stupid potty heads who can't write". There have been some very meaningful criticisms here. Yes, some customers need to be written off at the end of the day, but I don't think its us that are posting (maybe Gary as he seems to have a bone to pick). I'd rather pay you guys then pay other people, but you are right, I WILL move along if I don't get what I am paying for.

So, since I am going all out, how about you guys release special extra magazines for those events? You currently release 8 mags a year (I presume). I'd pay $25/each for a complete magazine on the $2k event and a complete magazine on the UTCC.

When threads like this come up, I always find it amusing how contradictory the complaints usually are. That right there should tell you something.

I actually like the event coverage. Maybe it is because I rarely miss a Mitty, want to attend Daytona, and would like to know what it's like to attend some of the other stuff out there. The in-person social stuff is a big draw for me and not something I see in a lot of other publications. Maybe because those publications don't really have the same quality community that's been built here. Unlike every other magazine I've ever read, this one bleeds into my actual life.

Consider me a subscriber for life.

BTW, for what it's worth I've met Tim numerous times and he's always been friendly and never dismissive. Same goes for everyone else. Thanks for the good times!

edit - oh yeah, I like the OP's article idea. I would definitely read that.

I'd say in almost all cases, criticism directed towards the magazine is discussed here at the office. More than one discussion here has started with, "Did you see that thread on our message board?" You guy are our (totally awesome) sounding board, and fortunately the staff can usually quickly make adjustments when needed. In this case, though, it sounds like someone has a bone to pick.

Special editions for just the Challenge and UTCC? Not a crazy suggestion at all.

My 2 cents:

I don't read every article in GRM, I mostly skip the event coverage, but I'm still seeing more than enough good content to keep me interested. I'm less enamoured with CM, I basically subscribed when you guys had a sale a couple of years ago. Nothing against the mag itself, it's just not my favorite area of the car hobby.

Having said that, I don't see how you can say the staff isn't responsive. How many other magazines, newspapers, websites, etc give you regular access to ALL of the major people who decide what content goes in? Almost every prominent person on the staff has posted in this very thread and given reasonable explanations for why things are the way they are. I love that. I may not agree with all of their decisions, but at least I know why they were made.

However, this forum software......

Can we get back on topic and ignore Gary?

GRM is hands down the ONLY thing I get in the mail that I get excited about!

Keep up the good work!

Rob R.

Tom_Spangler wrote: Having said that, I don't see how you can say the staff isn't responsive. How many other magazines, newspapers, websites, etc give you regular access to ALL of the major people who decide what content goes in? Almost every prominent person on the staff has posted in this very thread and given reasonable explanations for why things are the way they are. I love that. I may not agree with all of their decisions, but at least I know why they were made.

Actually, it's easy to go further.

If you think a specific article should be written for either CM or GRM, YOU CAN WRITE IT. And you get paid. And can correctly claim that you have been published in a national magazine.

Even with bad writing, you can do this- as the editors are REALLY good at editing, and STILL making it sound like you wrote it (thank you, again, David).

Seriously- outside of club magazines or publications, what magazine would publish stuff written by readers like that?

And I know 100% that I'm not the only one who has an article published.

No, I don't read the magazine all the way eihter. But GRM and CM are two of 3 car magazines I get now. Used to have R&T, C&D, Autoweek- and got really bored with their writing. If I were to add one more, it would be Racecar Engineering, but I can walk to our library and read it there for "free".

One more thing- I don't get the flack that CM gets for more high end cars. It's MORE what they actually are. Cover Mini's up to Ferraris. That Alfa 1900 that was recently in is so super rare, it's not even funny. Heck, if they covered AROC, it would be from the $2000 Spiders all the way to the $20M 8C2900s- and I have seen both ends at a single event, BTW. That is the scene that CM encompasses. I may not read about what to do at Monterey, but I have been there, and know that the cars CM wants to cover are there.

On a side note, the picture page recently had some kid taped to a stop sign. I could have sworn that was Tommy 10 years ago.... Really.

Tom Suddard wrote: Oh, and someone mentioned GRC car: I actually rode around the Daytona circuit with Emma Gilmour in a Hyundai Veloster a few months ago. This wasn't just a pace lap, either—I was in full gear and we were 6 feet in the air at times. What struck me wasn't the suspension, wasn't the drifting, wasn't anything but the raw, crude, barely-contained power that these cars make. We launched on asphalt, and it really did hurt for 2 seconds—then we were at 60 mph and she backed off. I mean, it was like the flying saucer at the carnival. My eyes hurt, I could only see the cage's halo bar, and my arms were pinned to whatever was behind me (I remember it being warm). I tried to brace myself for the upcoming braking zone, but my legs were glued to the front of my seat. There's simply no moving any appendage when a GRC car is floored. Once we'd rounded the first asphalt corner (It felt like a WRX on slicks) she started accelerating again. The gears are all straight cut, so each shift sounds, feels, and looks like the driver is whacking the transmission with a 5-lb. sledgehammer. Every. Single. Shift. I'm amazed at the abuse these cars can take. We drifted around a few dirt corners (on slicks). Then, she made a ton of minor corrections on the straight. "WTF," I thought. "Why does she care about exactly where she is on this straight?!" I peeled my eyes down from their now-default position staring at the halo bar, and nearly peed myself. There was a giant jump in front of us. We were still accelerating. Now, let me say: I hate flying. I'm fairly used to it at this point because I fly so much for work, but it still gives me butterflies. I legitimately panicked—who expects a "journalist ride-along" to actually, you know, JUMP?! I started fear-flailing, which didn't actually accomplish anything—we were still accelerating, so my limbs were still pinned. I do remember thinking "would she notice if I passed out? She seems pretty focused on this whole deal." Finally, we took off—and it was easy. Seriously, I didn't even notice at first. What tipped me off was my fear-limbs were now weightless, and suddenly all over the place. Then, BANG! I heard the landing, and suddenly we were accelerating and my limbs were pinned again, but I honestly didn't feel it. These cars are amazing pieces of machinery. After the jump, there were more smoking tires and hand brake turns and all that, but I just kept a bug stupid grin on my face the whole time. We did 2 more laps, and I loved every minute of it. GRC car? Yes, I'll take it. Okay, that's all I can type on my iPad at 10:38 pm. But there's some supercar impressions for you.

You should probably have some sort of follow up reporting how long the smile stayed on your face after such a ride. GRC cars are insanity on 4 wheels. Emma is real good egg. There a lot of good stories to be heard around the paddock, as there are a lot of top notch folks from around the globe that make the events happen.

Gary wrote: Skierd asked me what my exemplar publication is. I subscribe to a lot of car magazines but not all of them are in the same category as GRM or CM, or have the same target audience. So I think it's more appropriate to give an example of a magazine I like that is basically technical, and offers the type of detailed, "meaningful content" that I've been referring to, and that would be Hot Rod Magazine. You don't have to like hot rods or street rods to appreciate the amount of detailed content they pack into every issue. You really feel like you're getting your money's worth from the hard copy magazine. And that's really the heart of the issue with me. I'd really like to see GRM and CM have that kind of detailed meaningful content.

I like HRM for all the reasons you mention and on a personal level I'd love more tech less event but that's not what GRM is about. Tech articles make me happy but it's a magazine about motorsports, which casts a wide net. It still boggles my brain that there are people who call themselves automotive enthusiasts who DO NOT pick up wrenches, but there are and they are paying subscribers. Why should the content they wish to see be any less important? Your definition of meaningful content is what is meaningful to you. There are plenty of things in the magazine which ARE meaningful to others which perhaps do not interest you at all. That doesn't make them meaningless, it just means you were not the intended audience. As soon as you accept it's not all about you it gets a lot easier :)

JThw8 wrote: I like HRM for all the reasons you mention and on a personal level I'd love more tech less event but that's not what GRM is about. Tech articles make me happy but it's a magazine about motorsports, which casts a wide net. It still boggles my brain that there are people who call themselves automotive enthusiasts who DO NOT pick up wrenches, but there are and they are paying subscribers. Why should the content they wish to see be any less important? Your definition of meaningful content is what is meaningful to you. There are plenty of things in the magazine which ARE meaningful to others which perhaps do not interest you at all. That doesn't make them meaningless, it just means you were not the intended audience. As soon as you accept it's not all about you it gets a lot easier :)

Ever watched The Newsroom? Make the same show about magazines to highlight what a lot of people are getting at. Yes, business is about business. If the goal is to make money, have at 'er. But then I believe (IMO) that we are rightfully justified about what we are complaining about.

Oh... and yeah----- Adrian your OP was a cool idea. Thanks for posting!

I have selflessly volunteered myself to drive the F1, Champ Car, or whatever other insane machine we can test. The things I do for this job......

Somewhere around '03 or '04, I found myself sitting at a table in a hotel bar around 1am with Tim, Joe, and Rennie. I don't know about all this hubris business, but at least back then Tim wasn't too good to shoot the E36 M3 with some weird drunk dude from Indiana. I somehow doubt that has changed.

What is this hubris and where do I get me some? Or is it something I don't want?

I had hubris once. Tasted like chicken.

I think it's related to hummus. Maybe with acorns, instead of pine nuts?

I couldn't love GRM the magazine or the website more, and believe me, I don't like to be the P.C police or anything or the guy who has a problem with everything thing, but I do have a problem with this...

I find it a bit offensive that you use terms like "hubris", "hummus" etc etc... for your little descriptions or whatever for ground up nuts. I myself do not eat weird pasty stuff, nor am I a cook of any sort, but I feel sensitivity for people who do as I once dated a girl that ate only couscous, and my Girlfriend is pursuing her masters in the field.

These terms although I'm pretty sure are not even real things, are obviously meant to resemble the words used to describe awful food like substances, and it appears that they are used on these boards in a joking sense which, as I view it, makes light of people who are afflicted with such tastes.

It just dosen't seem right to me, thats all. I know that it's not my message board, and that no one forces me to post here, but all the same, some things are wrong when they really don't need to be.

In reply to Wally:

FTMFW!