Wall-e wrote:NGTD wrote: There is a huge upside of young people driving a manual that no one has mentioned. Rowing your own gears makes it damn hard to pick up ones phone. Think about that!It doesn't.
Yup :(
I've seen someone holding a phone in one hand just take their hand off the steering wheel to shift then grab the steering wheel again, never taking their phone off their ear. Its crazy how comfortable the average person would be doing this.
trick is using your knee to hold the wheel still while doing it.
or you use one hand on the steering wheel with the phone on speaker.
So you're saying stupidity spreads faster than intelligence can stamp it out?
If only we could, somehow.. make America great again! 
If there are folks out there who dream of a car with no steering wheel or even a brake pedal, how can you expect those same people to want to have to use a 3rd pedal and a lever every time they drive?
I'm glad this came up so early in the thread. Driving a manual is important to me, but driving itself is sort of existential at least in how strongly i feel about it. It's sad and ironic that we still pine to #savethemanuals when what needs to be saved is driving. AT ALL!
Ok now that i've replied to pg1 i'll have to work on the other 3 pages after work.
Stefan wrote: In reply to Gearheadotaku: 220k and our automatic is working fine. You need to adjust your preconceived notions.
225k on the wifemobile with no issues from the auto. On the other hand, my first 3 cars have all had failures related to the manual transmission, spanning clutch, clutch cable, linkages, syncros, and full transaxle replacements.
I'm now open to an auto in the right car for my next DD.
Gearheadotaku wrote:JohnRW1621 wrote:3 spd on the column, no A/C, and a vinyl bench, but you have cruise control?Cousin_Eddie wrote: My truck is virtually theft proof. 3 speed standard transmission with column shift.I find the real humor here that of this vintage, all you need is a screw driver to break the column casing near the turn signal and the engine will start with just the pull of an internal lever. Said another way, so easy on this to overcome the ignition lock but I agree so hard for the average current criminal to actually drive it way!Now you damn kids get off of my lawn and take your fancy floor shift standard transmissions with you.
My 16 year old neice daily driver is a 77 f150 with a straight 6, 3 on the tree, manual steering andbrakes, bench with no ac and no radio.
Some kids get it.
I like an automatic for the days my knee hurts too bad for a clutch, or the days i have to drive in city traffic.
So i rotate. Both transmission have their own place.
For a toy, it all depends on the purpose. The duster is a manual, elky is automatic, miata is manual, and the challenge car is automatic.
220k and counting on the slushbox in the Jeep.
For auto vs manual, it depends on both the vehicle and the engine in it IMO. Some vehicle / engine combos are perfectly enjoyable with a good auto (one that does what it's supposed to and will do what you want when asked), some are more enjoyable with a manual.
I regularly think about manual swapping the Jeep, but then I start thinking of how much $$$ will be involved to get an overall gearing spread that's pleasant on the street but can get low enough when needed to not give up any of the utility it has now with the torque converter to help out. And then I realize that I'm not missing much as-is, considering the trans is good about knowing what gear to be in and I can already rev match down through the gears in it, so...
There is way too much justification going on here. All this hand-wringing about practicality and functionality or tactile feedback over drudgery... "Because berkeley you, that's why" is the only defense necessary for either case.
Wow, it must be six weeks since we last had this pissing match!
Being able or unable to drive a manual does not in any way make someone good, bad, educated, uneducated and in now way does it indicate their inherent worth whatsoever.
I fail to see why people seem to think learning to drive a manual is in anyway harder than learning to driver period. I grew up in a country where outside of high end luxury sedans auto's didn't really exist. Neither myself or any one I knew thought learning to drive a manual was hard. You jumped in the car, got told how to press the clutch, engage gear, release the clutch and drive off. Once rolling the hard part of learning to drive a car started. Spatial awareness, closing speeds, feedback, feel, car placement, observing other vehicles and people around you. Learning to drive manual is a complete non-issue that baffles me over here.
Having grown up in that environment meant that I didn't understand why anyone with all four limbs would want to drive an auto. That was more to do with the fact that in England in the 80's a 2.0L 4cyl car with 80 hp was considered more than adequate for most cars. The inefficient (mainly) 3 speed autos of the day sucked so so bad they made what in retrospect where already snail pace cars unable to get out of their own way. Have you ever seen a car hit itself up the ass it's going so slow? Go and drive a 1,000cc 70's era Mini with a four speed auto and 40hp, then we can talk about how crappy autos are, or were.
Then I moved here in 1994. Looking for cars I went to see a Calloway Corvette that was sale locally for only $25K, but passed on it because 'Auto' What a dumbass. Having driven many C4 Corvettes with auto's since then I honestly think the L98 is better suited to an auto than either the Doug Nash 4+3 or the ZF 6 speed. Those cars with their massive low end torque and relatively lower power, all way way low in the rev range is an honest riot to drive with the 4 speed auto. Really, it's a better car. That was the start of my conversion.
These days auto's can be really really really good. As power and torque increase, plus driveline efficiency increases auto's just get better and better. As others have said, I wouldn't want to drive a 500, 600, 700hp car fast with a manual, I'm just not that good. Also the more torque you are trying to handle the heavier the clutch effort even with assistance. I hated the 'King Cobra' HD clutch in my old Mustang and only had it in there for a few months before going back to a lighter standard 96 Cobra clutch in my Supercharged 94. Not as strong, but much easier to drive. Also for SUV's I just don't see the point of a manual. Your far less likely to want to barrel into a corner hard on the brakes with a quick 3-2 heal and tow downshift, plus for towing Autos are great.
For a weekend toy, dedicated track car, occasional blaster or short distance plaything three pedals may still be king. I drove the auto version of my C30 before ordering the manual as no manuals existed to test. That was a god awful experience for that particular car. But more and more cars are better and better with auto's. For something where you are going to be sitting in traffic commuting, i don't ever think I'll go back to three pedals. For anything over 500hp I'm not a good enough driver to track it with manual I don't believe. I don't think I'm suddenly a lesser person in car guy terms because I now own and drive auto's much of the time.
YEs I loved being hard on the brakes and heal towing into the two roundabouts on my way to work this morning as it was quiet int he Volvo, but i also love barreling into those same two roundabouts in my (shock, horror, confiscate his man car) automatic Boxster when I drive that.
Drive what makes you happy, but don't judge or denigrate someone else for coming to a different conclusion when faced with the same set of wants/needs as you.
Kum-ba-yah motherberkeleyers.
Nostalgia is why I personally like manual transmission more than automatics.
It's a skill of sorts and a nod to the past. It's also "how my Grandpa and my Dad grew up so I'm doing it too".
But then again, I use a jump-rope rather than walk on a treadmill.
I DO have a bit more automotive respect for a teen boy or girl that can drive a manual. Sue me.
I think differently about a girl who owns and drives a 2007 Corolla than I do about a girl driving her own F-350. Again, sue me.
Stefan wrote: In reply to Gearheadotaku: 220k and our automatic is working fine. You need to adjust your preconceived notions.
Word. I can't say how much I can't stand this. "Power windows... That's just one more thing to break." "I only drive manuals because automatics fail." BS. I guess I'll need to find a car with no alternators, radiators, water pumps, tires, axles, seats, brake lines, master cylinders, head gaskets, or headlights. I mean, I have had literally all of those things fail on me.
In reply to Lugnut:
People got soft once the didn't have to crank start their horseless buggies.
Lugnut wrote:Stefan wrote: In reply to Gearheadotaku: 220k and our automatic is working fine. You need to adjust your preconceived notions.Word. I can't say how much I can't stand this. "Power windows... That's just one more thing to break." "I only drive manuals because automatics fail." BS. I guess I'll need to find a car with no alternators, radiators, water pumps, tires, axles, seats, brake lines, master cylinders, head gaskets, or headlights. I mean, I have had literally *all* of those things fail on me.
if my 92,000 mile ENGLISH Suv still has working electric windows, locks, and sunroofs, surely any other country's stuff should still be working. (except zee germans, they are always trying to outdo the English)
Wall-e wrote: In reply to Lugnut: People got soft once the didn't have Shovel the E36 M3 out of the stalls in the morning before hitching Dobin up the the carriage
Fixorated for you.
I can drive both, but I prefer automatic because of traffic.
Historically, my parents and grandparents had manuals. But given the chance, they jumped at an automatic and then never looked back. It wasn't considered a privilege to drive a manual (at least not by them).
Personally I would love to only drive a car on a track or an empty road. Then I would have a manual. But driving in the suburbs is an absolute chore.
For me it is not about lap times or any other performance oriented criteria, I just prefer manuals. Growing up my parents only had one auto, a 71 Toyota Corolla. It died when I was 6 and from then on until after I had moved out all we had were manuals. Driving a stick just feels right to me and I enjoy it so until I can no longer drive one I will have a stick shift.
One other consideration for me is the cost of maintenance. I had the trans fluid changed in my wife's R350 this summer to the tune of @ $600. I have not spent that much total on the last 4 manual cars I have owned, with three of them at or close to 300K miles. In my experience autos are more expensive to own over the life of the vehicle so given the choice I will choose the option that saves me money every time.
My kids will learn how to drive a manual because I am their dad and I say they have to. Knowing how means no matter what kind situation they are in they are prepared.
I think what many of us actually mean when we disparage a lack of ability, or desire to know how, to drive a manual as un-cool/un-manly/un-whatever is that, in truth, we find people who DO know how to drive them to be more interesting. We have an instant commonality and affinity for that person even if we otherwise don't like them much. Does that make any sense?
Adrian_Thompson wrote:Wall-e wrote: In reply to Lugnut: People got soft once the didn't have Shovel the E36 M3 out of the stalls in the morning before hitching Dobin up the the carriageFixorated for you.
At least you could eat your engine when it died though. Now I have to use an intermediary for groceries.
So I think I've narrowed it down at this point in my life, DD and fun no matter the HP I want a Manual, a truck tbh I would prefer an auto due to towing reasons (call it lazy I don't give 2 E36 M3s ) but in the not too distant past it was manual only for EVERY thing, then I drove a loaded trailer for 3 days in coastal Maine, changed my tone quick.
Trackmouse wrote: In reply to The0retical: Your daughter will grow up to be an awesome person some day. And she will embarrass and emasculate her boyfriends every time.
Or the type of boys that will come around would be gearheads. And that has some good and bad connotations. Lived through that with my youngest daughter, she used to autocross with me and did some of her own work on cars.
WildScotsRacing wrote: I think what many of us actually mean when we disparage a lack of ability, or desire to know how, to drive a manual as un-cool/un-manly/un-whatever is that, in truth, we find people who DO know how to drive them to be more interesting. We have an instant commonality and affinity for that person even if we otherwise don't like them much. Does that make any sense?
Yes. It's the same kinship we assume when we encounter someone in an old British roadster on a snowy day... Or a guy and his dog riding a hack with out of state plates and a tent on the back.
It might not be mutual, or something everyone gets but it is a thing.
I own 2 vehicles currently and they're both manuals (VW Golf R & Honda S2000). I understand that modern day automatics are faster than I am. They're frequently more efficient, easier to drive and in some cases they can be pretty reliable. I still prefer shifting my own gears. I think it has more to do with being a control freak than anything else.
I've owned a few modern day auto's, to include a DSG (dual clutch). Every time I thought "an auto would be nice" and bought one, I ended up loathing it within a couple months.
My biggest issue with the modern day automatic is that it just doesn't do what I want it to do, when I want it. I owned an Infiniti with a 7-speed and for the life of me, it never figured out my driving style. I remember going WOT to pass on the freeway and it shifting from 7th, to 5th, and then once it realized my foot was still in it, it would downshift again to 3rd/4th. Irritate the hell out of me that it didn't know what I wanted to begin with. That's just one scenario, of which there are many.
Same goes for the DSG I owned. That damn thing was so obsessed with fuel economy that it drove me nuts. If you were driving at 10/10ths it would generally figure out what you wanted, but when trying to drive at 6-7/10ths, it just never figured it out. I have an entire list of complaints about the DSG, but I'll just leave it at that.
Yes, I know modern autos have paddle shifters, but I have a couple of issues with paddle shifters:
Most of them have a very noticeable delay in response. When I'm trying to shoot for that gap in traffic, that delay might be a missed opportunity. More than anything, it's annoying.
Some paddle shifters are actually pretty responsive, but if I find myself using the paddles to control the transmission all of the time, I might as well just shift the gears myself...
I prefer manuals because I can get the car to do what I want it to do, when I want it done. No middle-man computers. Just my left foot and right hand.
There's also the argument of having additional driver involvement and not wanting the meager skills I've developed (heel-toe downshifts, ect) to perish; but in the end, I just prefer driving a stick.
6 weeks is a long time for me to not get my panties in a bunch, dude
Adrian_Thompson wrote: Wow, it must be six weeks since we last had this pissing match! Being able or unable to drive a manual does not in any way make someone good, bad, educated, uneducated and in now way does it indicate their inherent worth whatsoever. I fail to see why people seem to think learning to drive a manual is in anyway harder than learning to driver period.
But you moved to a place where the most difficult part of the driving test is parking the car. That makes moving both feet and one hand at the same time an insurmountable obstacle.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson:
I was pretty pleased with myself back in the early 80's, still dealing with Amazons and 140's with a Borg Warner 35, I came up with this: "The Borg Warner 35 transmission- the most efficient way to convert torque into a stream of oil on the road."
Streetwiseguy wrote:Adrian_Thompson wrote: Wow, it must be six weeks since we last had this pissing match! Being able or unable to drive a manual does not in any way make someone good, bad, educated, uneducated and in now way does it indicate their inherent worth whatsoever. I fail to see why people seem to think learning to drive a manual is in anyway harder than learning to driver period.But you moved to a place where the most difficult part of the driving test is parking the car. That makes moving both feet and one hand at the same time an insurmountable obstacle.
Ha, I did literally laugh when I had my American driving test. Passed the written without looking at the rules, then the driven part was turn right out of the parking lot, four right turns around the block and turn right back into the parking lot. The guy did complement me on being able to drive a stick so well though!
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