Autocross class query

Help me out here. In the forever duel between the friendly and approachable Miata and the SRZBZNS S2000, the lovable little miata lands in E-street and the S2K goes to B-street. Mod a miata a bit and land in STS, unless you have a torsen rear-end NA or any NB and you kids get to go play against a modded S2000. That seems about fair (not).

But here is where I really question the sanity of the SCCA class makers. The NB Mazdaspeed Miata, a turbocharged little firecracker of a car. Is it C-Street with the NCs or B-Street with the S2Ks? Nope, it gets to pummel the lowliest 1990 1.6 liter NA down in E-street. Never mind that modded up to Street Prepared it lands back into BSP (and look at that, so does the S2K).

Madness I tell you, madness!

Heh. All E46s - from a base 325i through the M3 - are classed in FS. I calculated it once and it's something like an 80% difference in horsepower, in fundamentally the same chassis, lumped together in 1 class.

The MS Miata isn't a great AX car stock for a variety of reasons which is why it's in ES. However, most of those issues can be fixed which is why it lands with other fast cars in BSP.
There is also the ever present fact that sometimes the rule makers can't make every car competitive in a class.

Short gearing is their main downfall. It happens to be an advantage at the pad in Lexington since it's so small (they were the only 2 cars I heard on the limiter, and for a few seconds at that), but on bigger courses are forced to shift between 2nd and 3rd a lot. When I was at the first Wilmington Pro a few weeks ago, that was the issue with them. Either let it eat the limiter for several seconds or risk several shifts per side. They didn't do so well that weekend.

KyAllroad wrote: Help me out here. In the forever duel between the friendly and approachable Miata and the SRZBZNS S2000, the lovable little miata lands in E-street and the S2K goes to B-street. Mod a miata a bit and land in STS, unless you have a torsen rear-end NA or any NB and you kids get to go play against a modded S2000. That seems about fair (not). But here is where I really question the sanity of the SCCA class makers. The NB Mazdaspeed Miata, a turbocharged little firecracker of a car. Is it C-Street with the NCs or B-Street with the S2Ks? Nope, it gets to pummel the lowliest 1990 1.6 liter NA down in E-street. Never mind that modded up to Street Prepared it lands back into BSP (and look at that, so does the S2K). Madness I tell you, madness!

Others already clarified the MSM is pretty bad in stock form. There's a reason it hasn't won at National events much, if AT ALL.

On classing other cars... At a certain point the SCCA as to class newer cars as the potential top ones to have.

Do you really draw more participation by having a 20+ year old special option package limited production car as the one to have?

As for STS vs STR, the NB and the NA car with torsen are kind of in between other cars potential wise.

STR has really good parity and class participation between S2000s and NCs/NDs. Locally NBs can hold their own as well.

STS is also healthy with great parity between Hondas and NA Miatas.

You buy a car for a class if you're serious about winning. You buy a car and complain about classing if you're not.

I sold my 3 to buy a 2 for STF because IMO better car for the job and just more fun. I have my gripes about the RSX-S and EP3 Civic in STF(only cars in class that are WAAAY vastly different than everything else).. But I'm also stubborn enough to try and build a better car to try and assess competitiveness since the Honda owners have stepped up their game. It'll ultimately end in me going to SMF when turbo and shenanigans with sphericals go on, getting stomped by a truly prepared car for the class... But fun locally. I'm hoping to give the national events a shot next year then back to fun local stuff.

Yep, if you've ever tried to run one, those msm miatas are a PITA. They are slower than a 99 Miata in most conditions, and the 99 walks all over the 1.6. For that matter, often the Toyota MR-S walks all over all the miatas in ES. That's life. (and I love 1.6 Miatas. But theres not a good home for every car.)

Wait, you mean that some of the SCCA classing schemes don't make sense?
The torsen LSD in my old NA miata didn't actually make it competitive with S2ks?

The rules are one of the biggest reasons not to autocross IMO.
(and I say that as someone who autocrosses fairly avidly)

The scca autocross rules for years was designed with one thing in mind. Make it as unfriendly to new people as possible and choke the life out of the sport

icaneat50eggs wrote: The scca autocross rules for years was designed with one thing in mind. Make it as unfriendly to new people as possible and choke the life out of the sport

That happens in any sport where you have SRSBZNS participants, and where you have those guys who refuse to understand the spirit of a simple rule and push the boundaries so far that every little thing must be legislated.

I mean, Smokey Yunich is a minor deity around here, but in actuality, he was exactly the kind of douchebag that makes a 5-pound rulebook necessary.

flatlander937 wrote: You buy a car for a class if you're serious about winning. You buy a car and complain about classing if you're not.

This.

Basically "no fun" = "losing" to people and everyone that complains is usually some casual person that ends up getting disillusioned when they don't have a car that is prepped properly or that is competitive in the particular class it gets put into, but instead of trying to make their car competitive in a particular class or getting a car that is competitive for a particular class they want their car to just BE competitive all of a sudden.

If "fun" = "winning" at autocross to you, then play the game. If you aren't even trying to play the game then maybe you should adjust your definition of fun.

The Mazdaspeed Miata stock is just not better than a regular NB Miata for autox. Gearing is terrible, the turbo setup is worthless. You'll be lucky to beat a regular NB Miata in ES. It's far from a firecracker. It's just not a good autocross car out of the box or even with a few modifications and that's why it ends up being a noncompetitive car unless you just go to Street Mod, at which point you can change out everything and make it competitive, but you might as well have started with a regular NB Miata if you were going to do that.

FYI, the "All the BMWs in FS" problem is getting fixed soon. The worry was that the older non-turbo non-M cars would've been overdogs in GS and something like a 330 ZHP probably would have been. But now there are the FoST and the new GTI and they won't be overdogs and there is a proposal to get them moved.

Question: I've seen the '99 Miata specifically referred to in several auto x related threads recently - is there a particular advantage that that year alone holds over the other NBs?

The Mazdaspeed Miata (MSM) also has a lower redline (500 RPM makes a difference)than regular Miatae. The gearbox has the same ratios as other 6 speed Miatas and the same rear end ratio as other 2005-2005 NBs AFAIK. So, it is really not the gearing that is so bad, it is the lower redline coupled with the extra 36+ Hp over a standard NB that ends up making for more shifting and you end up in 3rd at some point in a typical autox course. I gave up trying to make any sense out of SCCA classing rules after the first event I ran.

In reply to Furious_E:

The 99 sport is the car to have. I don't recall the exact specs, but it's got the torsen diff, stiffer springs (and maybe sway bars) than the base car, and I believe it's lighter than most NBs.

icaneat50eggs wrote: The scca autocross rules for years was designed with one thing in mind. Make it as unfriendly to new people as possible and choke the life out of the sport

I hate to be a party pooper but that's two things.

SnowMongoose wrote: Wait, you mean that some of the SCCA classing schemes don't make sense? The torsen LSD in my old NA miata didn't actually make it competitive with S2ks? The rules are one of the biggest reasons not to autocross IMO. (and I say that as someone who autocrosses fairly avidly)

It baffles me that adding bracing to the rear subframe of my '90 Miata that was present on later cars from the factory should bump me all the way to either Street Prepared or Prepared (I've heard both). Or that an 8th-gen Civic Si, a V6 CVT Altima, an original BMC Mini and a base Mazda3 all belong in the same class.

Spoolpigeon wrote: In reply to Furious_E: The 99 sport is the car to have. I don't recall the exact specs, but it's got the torsen diff, stiffer springs (and maybe sway bars) than the base car, and I believe it's lighter than most NBs.

Probably the good 1.8L, the BP-4W, factors in too.

NickD wrote: It baffles me that adding bracing to the rear subframe of my '90 Miata that was present on later cars from the factory should bump me all the way to either Street Prepared or Prepared (I've heard both).

Why is this baffling? Updating/backdating parts opens a whole host of doors for a lot of different cars. How do you say one part can be updated/backdated and still leaves you in a stock class versus another doesn't? Why do you get to add bracing from a particular later year, but I can't add a Torsen diff from a later year?

This is the classic question I see everyone ask, "How come just this one thing I want to do puts me into a higher class?" Because your one thing leads to other one things.

You can really do a hell of a lot to a car and still be in the Street Touring classes, which are far less extreme than Street Prepared or Prepared, that make your car a lot better than whatever bracing you want to add to the thing so I'm not even sure why this is a complaint.

NickD wrote: Or that an 8th-gen Civic Si, a V6 CVT Altima, an original BMC Mini and a base Mazda3 all belong in the same class.

Because nobody wants to drive a base Mazda 3, V6 CVT Altima or original BMC Mini competitively at autocross since they aren't competitive at all, but if someone happens to show up in one then they have a place to go.

It's that or you have W X Y Z Street for every one off car that doesn't really fit into a good category and that no one will ever bring to an event.

I think classing adds a fun element of preparation/research/thought to autox. Sure, if your approach to autox is to bring whatever car you already have and try to win, then some rules are going to booger you up (and that is the point, since everyone is trying to do the same thing and everyone wants to be 'competitive').

BUT

If your approach is to read the rules, understand them, and then seek to find a car that exploits them in a way no one else has before, then the classing rules are fun. Particularly for example, someone on here (mike I think?) recently discovered that a 10-15 year old v8/v12 mercedes coupe might be classed in HS. With a single sway bar, some new shocks and sticky tires (I'm sure the stock wheel width of the merc is 3+ inches wider than most of the HS field) and I would think you could whup up on some N/A minis. That would be fun, wouldn't it?

Here's the thread:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/noc-really-autocross-classing/118336/page1/