There is a point where not being able to heel/toe a manual car will create a roadblock to improvement. The auto gearbox eliminates that. Something with manual shift capabilities (flappy paddles) is good. Something old, like a GM turbo 350, will probably be frustrating.
I think the DSG VW is an excellent choice.
(I've done a few years as an instructor)
ddavidv said:There is a point where not being able to heel/toe a manual car will create a roadblock to improvement. The auto gearbox eliminates that. Something with manual shift capabilities (flappy paddles) is good. Something old, like a GM turbo 350, will probably be frustrating.
I think the DSG VW is an excellent choice.
(I've done a few years as an instructor)
Old autos with some tweaks to firm up the shifts can be surprisingly redeeming for manual shifting in my mind. They're not smart, so doing things like blipping the throttle doesn't confuse them. If you either heel-toe or left foot brake, you can often blip the throttle at the right point on a manual downshift with an older trans and get a perfectly smooth engagement. With modern automatics, I find many are fine to let them just downshift on their own under power (or do it manually), but off throttle downshifts tend to be less than ideal.
In reply to ddavidv :
Ran my Firebird for years with the original '70 T-350 behind a mildly built Pontiac 400 , shift kit, stock convertor, B&M shifter, and B&M cooler. I gave the T-350 (still working well) to a bud and am putting in a T-400 during the current rebuild. I can drive manuals fine and eventually (hopefully) it'll get a 5 speed Tremec but they're $$$ and even the old 4 speeds are fetching bigger money now than I'd want to spend for one.
Seems kinda funny. Full cage, full containment Kirkeys, fire systems, huge Yokohama DOT R tires, entire suspension upgraded, and a T-350 ahahaha Run what you've got right?
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MrFancypants said:With GTIs people tend to run into engine heat issues before DSG heat issues, and those cars are running upgraded turbos. A stock or lightly upgraded GTI shouldn't give you any heat issues.
I have a manual clutch GTI that I do track days in and if for some reason I had to go to a two pedal car a DSG GTI would be one of the first cars I look at.
Another option.... have you considered an ND2 Miata? Mazda's latest auto transmissions are really good, good enough that I imagine it wouldn't dampen the joy of driving one.
the ND1&2 and the Fiata all use the same automatic trans as the NC with possibly some minor improvements.
they do not use the fantastic skyactive automatic trans all the FWD and AWD stuff does.
The largest issue with automatics is poor control technology upshifting while braking into a corner and then banging down a gear or two when you accelerate out, exactly when you don't want harsh tire inputs. A lot of newer automatics are smart enough to not do that. For the rest, there's manual shifting so you can hold the gear you want.
I really, really like VWAG's implementation of twin clutch transmissions that automatically rev match downshifts, by the way. Not sure if your (well, Lori's?) GTI has that feature, but every Audi I've driven lately does, and it's absolutely magic.
spacecadet (Forum Supporter) said:MrFancypants said:With GTIs people tend to run into engine heat issues before DSG heat issues, and those cars are running upgraded turbos. A stock or lightly upgraded GTI shouldn't give you any heat issues.
I have a manual clutch GTI that I do track days in and if for some reason I had to go to a two pedal car a DSG GTI would be one of the first cars I look at.
Another option.... have you considered an ND2 Miata? Mazda's latest auto transmissions are really good, good enough that I imagine it wouldn't dampen the joy of driving one.
the ND1&2 and the Fiata all use the same automatic trans as the NC with possibly some minor improvements.
they do not use the fantastic skyactive automatic trans all the FWD and AWD stuff does.
Also, Mazda often makes other changes to go along with the automatic. I dunno if this is true of the ND, but NA/NB did not get an LSD with the automatic, for example.
In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
none of the automatic ND were offered with an LSD.
the stock LSD wears out over time anyway since it's a cone type and not a torsen of any kind.
I've considered tracking my FWD ralliart wagon. It's a decent handling car with good low and midrange torque and a power curve well matched to the gearing, but the automatic transmission was terribly frustrating when I've autocrossed it.
While I can hold a gear and keep it from upshifting, I can't keep it from downshifting. Roll into the throttle coming off a turn, and it would slam into first gear and light up the inside tire.
Pretty much any of the VAG products are probably decent choices. The M2 dsg is supposedly very good. The gm autos have a bad track record for autocross but I think tend to be decent on track. I would be very hesitant to run any traditional automatic other than the 10spd that ford/gm uses in most of their performance cars for a variety of reasons.
You can track a manual transmission car without downshifting properly, but...I wouldn't. At this point a good dsg is as fast or faster on track than a manual anyway.
Straying a bit OT but my next project car has a high probability of coming with an automatic (Ford C4). I've owned virtually zero autotragics until my E4OD '93 Lightning. As the track use of the impending FoMoCo project will likely be only 10-15% of it's use I'm debating the logic of a potentially expensive MT swap. Is there a magic elixir of components that can make something like a C4 reliable and manually shift-able?
I've been racing and time trialing for 15 years.
Still can't heal toe. It's not that big of an issue.
My wife TTs a auto tragic Mustang. My son TTs a P71 Crown Vic. They both take the abuse just fine. If anything its harder on the brakes than it is the transmission.
Buy what you want or use the wife's car. A track day is as hard on the machinery as you want it to be. Just get on track and try it out before you spend a pile and decide you don't like it.
My vote for steal wife's car and give it a shot.
In reply to ddavidv :
LOTS of good options for building a stout C4. I've had one built.
If you start a new thread on the topic you'll have a better chance of getting specific information.
edit: plus, I'd like to follow the discussion.
Another thing you might consider. Some newer manuals will rev match for you. Pretty sure the 370z does. No heal toe necessary.
ddavidv said:Straying a bit OT but my next project car has a high probability of coming with an automatic (Ford C4). I've owned virtually zero autotragics until my E4OD '93 Lightning. As the track use of the impending FoMoCo project will likely be only 10-15% of it's use I'm debating the logic of a potentially expensive MT swap. Is there a magic elixir of components that can make something like a C4 reliable and manually shift-able?
Anything that old could be converted to a full manual valve body if desired, so no auto shifting at all.
rslifkin said:ddavidv said:Straying a bit OT but my next project car has a high probability of coming with an automatic (Ford C4). I've owned virtually zero autotragics until my E4OD '93 Lightning. As the track use of the impending FoMoCo project will likely be only 10-15% of it's use I'm debating the logic of a potentially expensive MT swap. Is there a magic elixir of components that can make something like a C4 reliable and manually shift-able?
Anything that old could be converted to a full manual valve body if desired, so no auto shifting at all.
I'd kind of assume you could go with whatever the drag racers do to build one up, but just don't use as loose of a torque converter.
The plan for me is definitely to get out on a track before making any significant financial moves, I need to make sure it is something I'd want to sink the money into.
eastsideTim said:I'd kind of assume you could go with whatever the drag racers do to build one up, but just don't use as loose of a torque converter.
The plan for me is definitely to get out on a track before making any significant financial moves, I need to make sure it is something I'd want to sink the money into.
Pretty much. Torque converter wise, don't go too loose, but you don't want it super tight either. A looser converter reduces the tire shock when shifting under power and can help smooth out power application (which will help grip a little). Plus it helps make up for sins of incorrect gear selection or wide spacing between gears. The biggest downsides to a looser converter are that it will feel more slushy and maybe a little bit rubber band-y, and it'll make more heat, so you'll need more cooling.
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