back to a minivan style replacement vehicle

We played this game a few times, and now it's time for a new twist. Read the whole post before commenting, otherwise it'll get confusing.

We own a 06 Freestyle, we like it, but it's time to replace it due to a transmission issue. If you haven't been keeping score at home, please read these briefly:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/minivans-vs-carseats/25539/page1/

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/transmission-swap-slightly-unconventional/37419/page1/

We have three kids, all in carseats, the youngest rear facing and one 75 lb dog (Lucy is gone, boo).

We are poor. We ran out of money recently. Long story, not worth telling.

I can't stand being able to afford a FWD high mileage time bomb just waiting for a new transmission (all minivans seem to be deficient in this regard) or a SUV pig that gets 17 mpg on its best highway trip ever. There has really got to be something more. I am even going to open the floor to the "screw the dog, that's what the PT is for, she will never travel with the family ever - get a big pantheresque sedan and squeeze the kids until the door close" option.

Obviously, I like older cars, often easier to fix, often cheaper and easier to find parts for, most of the time just as reliable, but there is one wildcard that we had not considered (widely) yet. Safety. Modern cars rock, older cars suck, as generalities go. Crash tests prove that.

So, what vehicle, capping at maybe 4k, seats this many kids, hopefully sits the dog, gets better than Suburban mileage and has better than T&C or ODY reliability, and has been verified to be safe in some meaningful way. I have looked, and am perfectly willing to accept Euro Ncap scores, which I personally feel are superior to NHTSA, NHTSA, IIHS, Japanese crash tests, or anything else where someone actually smashed the car into something and some expert looked at the result. This one time you had a head on collision with an 18-wheeler in your Austin Healey Sprite totally does not count.

DO NOT:

-Tell me that older cars are safer because the steel is thicker.

-Tell me that cars are being built to pass specific crash tests

-tell me that Obama/Bush is solely responsible for....

-Suggest three Miatas

-Tell me to save more money

-Tell me to take on car payments

Right now, our list looks like this:

2000+ (hopefully) Suburban, Tahoe, Envoy, Yukon

?-1996 Caprice/Impala/Roadmaster wagon

1st gen Odyssey

1998-2003 Sienna

Camry wagon

Accord wagon

Saturn LWxxx wagon

Not even all of those are even that safe. The wagons don't have enough room, really, to boot (get it?) and the trucks have terrible gas mileage. What am I missing? Any ahead-of-its time three row vehicle with great safety ratings? The Astro got terrible side impact crash test ratings, and the Aerostar we borrowed barely had enough room for the rear facing seat in ANY position. Am I stuck with a icky old minivan or a giant SUV?

The Mazda5's pappy, the Mazda MPV:

2000-2006, 4-5 stars all crash tests, seats 7, and they can be found still in good shape for around $4000. Gas mileage is supposed to be not great though. Best I can come up with.

Oh, and check out the KIA Sedona as well. They also got very good crash scores. A friend's family of a bunch has one that they never take care of and it's as dependable as gravity.

Where are you? I've got a '93 Roadmaster Wagon that I'd part with for challenge money. It's not pretty, but it seats 9, and FWIW I heard that they had the best crash ratings of any car in their era.

Not sure if it fits your 3-car seat bill, though, as the 3rd-row is backwards-facing.

Pics are in my garage.

Sedona specs and safety.

The B body wagons will do what you want. Gas mileage will be in the 18-20 range though. A Urban will probably do that good. They were rated fairly high in crash standards also. They also don't have the yuppie tax the way a SUV does. I paid $1200 for mine. It's a 93. Go a little newer and you get the LT1 which gets a little better gas mileage. The price jumps as well. The hot rod guys like them.

Unfortunately the best all around vehicle we have is a Chevy Venture. Of all the minivans I have driven, it drives the best. It has been virtually bullet proof for the last 100K miles and has never left the wife and kids on the side of the road.

Javelin wrote: The Mazda5's pappy, the Mazda MPV: 2000-2006, 4-5 stars all crash tests, seats 7, and they can be found still in good shape for around $4000. Gas mileage is supposed to be not great though. Best I can come up with.

Gosh, that's one sexy minivan!

I'm not biased, but I do own a 2005 MPV-ES. Purchased new, currently showing 80,000 miles. I've replaced tires and brakes, battery, oil and filters. Probably about time I thought about doing plugs and coolant. It's been great. Mine has the winter package and a transmission oil cooler. Gas mileage in the low 20's in day-to-day driving, up to 26 on interstate jaunts. Not sure how that can be considered bad in a vehicle of this size.

I was going to suggest the earlier MPV that was rear-drive and based on the stellar 929 platform. I've known examples that weren't treated all that gently that went 250k+ and were still going strong on original drivetrains. Not sure how they faired in crash tests, although I suspect they were very good in their day.

I like the MPV idea and a quick check of CL out the Tuna way shows a number to chose from in the price range.

A Volvo 740 could do it:
http://raleigh.craigslist.org/cto/2665225345.html

If looking Roadmaster then here is an Olds Cruiser:
http://winstonsalem.craigslist.org/cto/2667957956.html

Would a Saab 9-5 interest you?
http://raleigh.craigslist.org/ctd/2638099927.html

What's the split of in-town vs. highway driving, and how many miles would you put on this vehicle in a year? Reason being, our Odyssey gets 14 MPG in in-town running, and I can't imagine a Suburban doing that much worse. Our Ody does about 95% in-town, so for us the difference between an Odyssey and a Suburban from a fuel economy perspective would be a wash. Plus, similar year Suburbans are far cheaper!

dj06482 wrote: What's the split of in-town vs. highway driving, and how many miles would you put on this vehicle in a year? Reason being, our Odyssey gets 14 MPG in in-town running, and I can't imagine a Suburban doing that much worse. Our Ody does about 95% in-town, so for us the difference between an Odyssey and a Suburban from a fuel economy perspective would be a wash. Plus, similar year Suburbans are far cheaper!

Sounds like you have bad driving habits or there is something wrong. Ours got 19-21 city.

OK I realize the crash protection is important... or something like that

minor rant mom and dad got our first (and only ever) new car when I was 6, middle sister was 5, and baby sister was 2 or something like that... they got a Plymouth horizon (dodge omni)... yes a little 5 seat hatch... granted because people weren't crazy like they are now about car seat safety and such only the 2 y/o was in a car seat at the time (seriously... STRONGLY RECOMMENDED to have a kid in a booster seat till they are 9?)... we took MANY cross country trips over the next 9 years in that thing... we used a car top carrier or a utility trailer...

but to be very honest once we got the suburban trips where much nicer... not sticking 3 kids right next to each other = good.

ok moving on... the BEST most useful car I have ever owned was a chebby astro... standard small truck simplicity more room then anything else you will find in the price range (those SUV's have no where near the room)... and still enough heft to tow smaller cars without an issue... I miss mine and it's the one car i'd consider selling the volvo for (get similar/better MPG even lol)

other option... buy a time bomb transmission van but make sure you have a new transmission fund budgeted in...

Re the Suburbans - don't discount the Vortec ones (96-99), my understanding is that they're at least as good on fuel as the 2000-on ones.

No Euro anything, please. Other than that, the suggestions sound pretty decent thus far - I had not realized that MPVs got that cheap. The Roadmaster wagon is a tough sell for the wife, but I may try... They are CHEAP.

In reply to dj06482:

maybe 20k/year, 25 highway, 75 city-ish.

Look into Buick Rendezvous.
A Mini-van cross over type vehicle that is typical GM (both good and bad.) They offer a large center bench and can do a third row as well.

Pacifica,

Mazda 5 (I own one and am very happy)

tuna55 wrote: No Euro anything, please. Other than that, the suggestions sound pretty decent thus far - I had not realized that MPVs got that cheap. The Roadmaster wagon is a tough sell for the wife, but I may try... They are CHEAP.

The pre-00 RWD MPV's were awesome as well, but that may be a hard sell. Also, I wouldn't want anything pre-02 for a car seat family as they didn't have LATCH yet. I'm this close to trading in the Grand Prix on something newer just so I don't have to deal with that crapola.

I'd seriously look at the 02+ MPV's and Sedona's in your area...

tuna55 wrote: No Euro anything, please. Other than that, the suggestions sound pretty decent thus far - I had not realized that MPVs got that cheap. The Roadmaster wagon is a tough sell for the wife, but I may try... They are CHEAP.

My wife hated mine until she drove it. Now she just want's a paint job on it so she can drive it more.

By the way, since it was mentioned, LATCH is not at all a requirement...

Pontiac Aztek? I know they're about the single most hideous thing on earth, but that makes up for them being available for challenge money. If safe/reliable/decent on gas is what you want, it might check all the boxes.

My wife wouldn't let me install a rear facing carseat in the hatch of our SW2, but that would be my best idea.

I really liked the second generation Dodge Intrepid (or a 300M). The back seat is really large. I don't think you'd have too much trouble with 3 car seats in the back. We did 1 forward facing car seat in front middle and 1 rear facing car seat in the back middle for a while and then both car seats in the back. Don't get one with a Jasper "rebuilt" engine.

Volvo 850/V70 can be had with a third row with rear facing seats and a manual transmission.

Astro/Previa/1st Gen Odyssey/etc all suck for crash ratings. I think the RWD MPV was merely okay.

Our 1998 Sienna XLE just keeps going 260,000 miles. I have some ebay sourced rebuilt heads to swap in sometime this winter. Minivans don't even accommodate 2 rear facing car seats very well. If you put them on the outside of the middle row by the doors you've just blocked both doors. We ended up having to turn one of the seats around.

Actually, I am pretty sure I can fit 3 car seats in the back of the 325i. I've had one rear facing in the middle and one front facing on the side recently. It certainly helps to alternate them.

Our first family car was a 1988 Lincoln Continental which actually worked out well.

Tuna, as I've said before, I can completely understand where you're coming from.

From your list, which seems like a pretty good one, I'd say find a nice early model Sienna. It'll do it's job, plain and simple.

But like others have said, don't overlook the Sedona. We have the second generation model, but I think the first gen can be had at a good price. They were built like brick E36 M3 houses. I know it was a big selling point for us when we bought ours.

In reply to tuna55:

You've go the car you need/want, why trade it? If the only problem is the the tranny, fix it, pocket the 2K and drive the E36 M3 out of it. 4K for an old 35K car is just going to buy you another problem.

Or maybe you just want to buy a different car?

Bill

OrangeAlpine wrote: In reply to tuna55: You've go the car you need/want, why trade it? If the only problem is the the tranny, fix it, pocket the 2K and drive the E36 M3 out of it. 4K for an old 35K car is just going to buy you another problem. Or maybe you just want to buy a different car? Bill

I think the issue is the "always a time bomb" CVT.

OrangeAlpine wrote: In reply to tuna55: You've go the car you need/want, why trade it? If the only problem is the the tranny, fix it, pocket the 2K and drive the E36 M3 out of it. 4K for an old 35K car is just going to buy you another problem. Or maybe you just want to buy a different car? Bill

Read the two posts I linked in the initial post...