Banned stuff?

Oh sure they're not safe compared to today's cars, but they were pretty safe for their time, apart from a few notable exceptions (I remember one had a magnesium frame!)

In reply to GameboyRMH:

Safe back then was expendable if it meant more speed.....but to say it was the fans that were the only unsafe thing about it is massively incorrect.

GameboyRMH wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: 1987 Lotus 99T with active suspension

On that note, the FIA scared everyone away from using FRICS in F1, before it came to a ban. Technically it's a passive suspension system but it's very nearly as clever as active suspension.

The key difference here was the Lotus one could be adjusted directly at runtime from a computer in the pits to update the setup turn by turn rather than having a set program running on the car.

This sort of thing also led to the banning of this practice for ECUs as well.

A couple I can think of. The 1981 Lotus 88 Twin chassis after they banned sliding skirts. Lots of debate over if it was actually illegal or just not wanted by the FIA and bigger teams.

Another that they were absolutely right in banning was aluminium roll cages. Not very strong and terrible from a fatigue point of view. They became very popular in Gropu 4 racing and Group 4 then Group B rally for a while. Audi, Porsche, Lancia etc all used them. Terrifying.

yamaha wrote: Group B cars definitely weren't "safe" by today's standards.....the rs200's split into pieces when they hit something and roll cages might as well been made of cardboard.

I don't recall any RS200's splitting in half. When, where? Body work came off, but that was totally non structural. There were some Lancia 037 that disintegrated in fatal accidents with alloy roll cages mentioned above. Ditto with the Delta S4 that was involved in Henri Toivonen accident that (excuse the bad taste pun) killed Group B.

How about "fiddle brakes"? That is being able to alter the lateral brake balance (automatically or by driver input) to avoid locking the inside tire.

yamaha wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: There was actually nothing inherently unsafe about most Group B cars - today's WRC cars are faster overall, and GRC cars make them look like slow old relics in every way. The biggest safety problem in Group B by far was that the spectators were dumb.

Ehh, group b had a high mortality rate towards the drivers......most of that was chassis/protection systems not being as advanced as today.

Drivers and navigators in shorts and a T-shirt, sitting on a fuel tank full of witches' brew, surrounded by a shell where most of the steel was cut out and the holes covered up with Kevlar/carbon fiber materials. With a 6-point bolt in aluminum roll cage for safety.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: There were some Lancia 037 that disintegrated in fatal accidents with alloy roll cages mentioned above. Ditto with the Delta S4 that was involved in Henri Toivonen accident that (excuse the bad taste pun) killed Group B.

I've seen photos of Toivonen's car, as well as video of them winching the hulk onto a flatbed.

The roll cage was intact (albeit a bit bent/sagged) and more or less the only recognizable part of the car left.

The best guess is that there was a fuel leak (they'd been complaining of one all weekend) and they were overcome by the toluene vapors. No signs of trying to stay on the road before they'd gone off.

Modern WRC cars are faster with less boost, less displacement (finally below the 1700cc GpB engines), and less RPM, with a 31mm restrictor... but twice as much suspension travel, much better suspension geometry, much better chassis thanks to all of the attention paid to it, far better brakes... and the drivers have an easier schedule.

Also, bear in midn that when GpB was banned, the cars extant had only been around for a year or two. Not much development time available. In 2014 we have lots more experience with the general concept which has been around since the end of the Group A days in the 90s.

WARNING. pics of aftermath of fatal accidents.

The remains of Toivonen's car. Recognisable as a car to us car geeks, but not really.

Attilio Bettega 037 exactly a year prior to Toivonen's crash (May 2nd 85 and 86)

Again, pretty much collapsed around the poor guy.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

More than one did after hitting trees. Pretty sure it wasn't 037's due to the blue/white paint scheme.

There is a great quote from Walter Rohrl and the end of a video called "The Gods behind the Wheel(IIRC). He is asked about how it went and he said something like, "I only know that the Audi is too fast for me!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1WcLLcb2FM

In reply to yamaha:

I'd love to see pics. One of the issues with the RS200 was that it was much stronger, hence heavier than the competition as it was made with an aluminium honeycomb backbone, floor, sills (rocker panels here) and bulkheads with a steel outer skin bonded and riveted to it. It was a comparative tank compared to the Peugeot’s and Lancia's, although the 6R4 and certainly the Quattro in its various guises were also solid. The RS200's most infamous moment came when Joaquim Santos came over a crest and could not avoid the crowed, hitting many and killing 3 in 1986. Not the car or drivers fault, but the terrible crowed control and stupid spectators that caused it.

NGTD wrote: There is a great quote from Walter Rohrl and the end of a video called "The Gods behind the Wheel(IIRC). He is asked about how it went and he said something like, "I only know that the Audi is too fast for me!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1WcLLcb2FM

But that comes down to the old saying. "Power is nothing without control" Those cars were massively, stupidly powerful. Some claim over 600 or even 700hp with primitive electronics, massive turbo lag, on/off power delivery with crude suspension, dampers and diffs. After Group B was banned in rallying the cars were continually developed in Rally cross into genuine 700hp monsters and were far more drivable before being outlawed there too.

Yes modern rally and rallycross cars are way faster over a given course, but not in terms of pure, straight line gravel destroying POWA!!!!

BTW, I’m loving this conversation. I am not disagreeing or criticizing anyone else point of view, genuinely enjoying talking about some of my favorite cars of all time here..

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

I think the easiest clip to find is this one which was in 50 years sideways. (pretty sure this is the same clip with a different angle) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sj9yTWP1fA

There are a few more I've seen through the years, but can't remember where they were seen/when they were

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

I agree, in some ways Group B has become romanticized, however they were not romantic. Very much 2 dimensional cars - STOOPID Power and light weight, to the point that they were killing crews and spectators. Most of the spectator deaths appear to be from stupidity, as you can see in the videos.

Modern WRC cars are much more of a total package and are faster as a result.

yamaha wrote: In reply to Adrian_Thompson: I think the easiest clip to find is this one which was in 50 years sideways. (pretty sure this is the same clip with a different angle) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sj9yTWP1fA There are a few more I've seen through the years, but can't remember where they were seen/when they were

Ho-Le-Sh1t. I'd forgotten about that. That was the F1 driver Marc Surer. You are absolutely right, it did snap in half after hitting a tree sideways at 135mph. His co-driver Michel Wyder tragically burned to death in the car while Surer broke numerous bones inc his pelvis which ended his F1 career as well :(

I wonder how much better the Group B safety record would have looked with better fire safety standards and bag tanks etc. I don't know, but I'd guess most of the fatal driver/co-driver accidents were as a result of fire as much or more than the destruction of the cars.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

Well, they didn't believe in fuel cells and stuff, so perhaps alot better.

One of my all-time favorite cheats, just because it was so simple, was whichever NASCAR team at Talladega stuck some washers under the roof flaps to elevate them a bit and get air over the spoiler.

NASCAR also specs how stiff the springs can be, and Chad Knaus won several races for JJ by building shocks so stiff they acted as stiffer springs. That was banned after it was discovered.

Bill Elliott won 4 races in a row before anyone discovered the cambered rear end. It wasn't banned outright, but the rules now limit the amount of camber.

And let's not forget the Ilmor Mercedes pushrod V8 that won Indy. It exploited a rules loophole that gave pushrod engines extra displacement and boost, but since everyone knows "proper" racing engines don't have pushrods, everyone but Ilmor/Penske/Mercedes ignored it. It lapped all but one car in the race.

Knurled wrote:

yamaha wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: There was actually nothing inherently unsafe about most Group B cars - today's WRC cars are faster overall, and GRC cars make them look like slow old relics in every way. The biggest safety problem in Group B by far was that the spectators were dumb.

Ehh, group b had a high mortality rate towards the drivers......most of that was chassis/protection systems not being as advanced as today.

Drivers and navigators in shorts and a T-shirt, sitting on a fuel tank full of witches' brew, surrounded by a shell where most of the steel was cut out and the holes covered up with Kevlar/carbon fiber materials. With a 6-point bolt in aluminum roll cage for safety.

They did wear fire suits. Not quite shorts and t-shirts. Not enough to deal with an instant fireball, but it wasn't quite as wild west as you're suggesting.

ABS was banned from F1 in 1994, something I found always found interesting.
The Red Bull RB6 and RB7 used exhaust blown over the diffusers plus some engine management retarded the ignition to keep the exhaust flowing in corners. That's probably my favorite modern "outside the box" method employed.

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

NGTD wrote: There is a great quote from Walter Rohrl and the end of a video called "The Gods behind the Wheel(IIRC). He is asked about how it went and he said something like, "I only know that the Audi is too fast for me!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1WcLLcb2FM

But that comes down to the old saying. "Power is nothing without control" Those cars were massively, stupidly powerful. Some claim over 600 or even 700hp with primitive electronics, massive turbo lag, on/off power delivery with crude suspension, dampers and diffs.

In reality, 400hp, 500hp maybe. Certainly the Audis were the most powerful (their heavier weight allowed them 2100cc engines vs the 1700s of Lancia and Peugeot), but conversely the Audis were also supposed to be utter pigs that could only go, stop, and turn, but no two at the same time...

Keith Tanner wrote: They did wear fire suits. Not quite shorts and t-shirts. Not enough to deal with an instant fireball, but it wasn't quite as wild west as you're suggesting.

Not always. They noted in the rally after Toivonen's death that the Lancia drivers were sweltering in full firesuits while the other teams were wearing T-shirts...

I'm basing my comment on in-car video, didn't spot any t-shirts. Audi was definitely wearing suits.

I'd like to see proper driver controlled active aero come back.

I do like the way that current hybrid systems force the driver to decide when and where to unleash the extra power, there's an element of strategy that it brings which I don't think is properly recognized. Did you know that the rate at which an F1 driver lays into the throttle for the pre-race burnout matters? Hit it too fast, you'll use battery power instead of ICE power and then you start the race at less than 100%. How cool is that?

Along the Red Bull flexi-wing lines, they weren't the only ones to experiment with that, just the best at it :D Ferrari tried (and failed, see fluttering wings in practice a few years back) and there was a vid from a McLaren (I think when Lewis was still there) showing a panel seam on the front wing pylons that opened due to flexion on the straightaways... meaning the AoA changed.

The NHRA's ban on turbos for most if not all it's top tier classes.

The outright ban of Mosler's Intruders from 24 hours of Nelson Ledges comes to mind.