Beating the Civic Si in STC

So... I've been discussing this with people at my recent local autocrosses, and I'm just wondering what can get it done.

I mean, obviously something could be faster, but looking what is in class, I'd think the B13 Sentra SE-R and AE86 Corolla would be the best bet. Not sure if they could. SE-R would have more power, but weighs a little more. The AE86 has REAR WHEEL DRIVE!!1!! and tofu delivery, is probably nearly as lightweight and probably about the same power, maybe more?

I dunno... this is the kinda bullE36 M3ting stuff that I enjoy most about autocross. Just wonder what you guys think.

It just seems to me that lots of the established "THE CAR" in autocross classes are a bit of self-fulfilling prophesies. EF Si is THE CAR, so people start to only run the EF Si, the best/most competitive drivers get them, so the EF Si gets developed more and more, gets faster and faster, some chowderhead builds something else, is terrible, confirms EF is the best, etc.

Not familiar with STC but I am familiar with the 89/90 civic SI being dominant in some classes along with the CRX

240sx( only other car to have ever won), and some say a 87-91 prelude done right might be able to bring it.

The Hachi's are screwed because of their rear suspension deign, they are better off playing in prepared.

Not convinced anything has anything for a well prepared and driven 89 Si.

The only reason Jason R got it done in the 240 was because he could run 17 inch wheels with a far superior tire at the time. The magic, 195 toyo took that advantage away and then some.

Not having spent any time around these Civics, what are their specs that make them so dominant?

What's their stock vs. class-prepped HP? Stock vs. class-prepped weight?

My hunch is there's possibly something out there that could top them(given the right combination of factors), but since the Civic is the "easy-button" for the class, most people who are serious about chasing trophies gravitate towards it. I know there are people who have done their best to develop some other cars unsuccessfully, but are there any cars that have been overlooked?

I think their primary advantage over the other cars in the class is grip, due to their A-arm suspension and proper camber curve.

Being a good weight for the magic Toyo helps a lot too. I think with the tire rules going through (moving up to 200TW limit) that could mix it all up.

In reply to jstein77:

I can see that being a factor on stock springs, but from my experience it seems most autocross cars prepped to ST classes or beyond have spring rates high enough to limit suspension travel to ~2"-3". At that minimal amount of movement I don't see camber-curve has having a huge impact - unless it's really bad*.

What does an STC Civic weigh? How much power are they making?

LainfordExpress wrote: The AE86 has REAR WHEEL DRIVE!!1!! and tofu delivery, is probably nearly as lightweight and probably about the same power, maybe more?

Tofu delivery?

The build has essentially become a spec build. They found what works, and they're exploiting the E36 M3 out of it.

In reply to Will:

Initial D anime

On the other hand some competitors probably like that its not about the car? since everyone is driving the same thing prepped very similar

Yeah but that would leave bench racing your own skills, and that's not as fun because when you find out it doesn't work you can't just say "well the rulebook is just written in such a way that it excludes my particular kind of driving genius from STC". No, when it doesn't work, you just find out you aren't good enough! That's why we dont bench race about driving talent.

Neon! They just gave up on it. Lol.

Vigo wrote: Yeah but that would leave bench racing your own skills, and that's not as fun because when you find out it doesn't work you can't just say "well the rulebook is just written in such a way that it excludes my particular kind of driving genius from STC". No, when it doesn't work, you just find out you aren't good enough!

Well, that wasn't really what I was trying to say at all, but whatever,

The point I'm trying to make is that the EFs are winning because that's what all the driving geniuses are driving, and in fact, if you took three or four of them and plopped them into B13 SE-Rs or AE86 GT-Ss one of them might win in that instead.

I'm just not convinced that if you're gonna run in STC, you need an EF Si (more specifically an '89) or you're just wasting your time. But everyone I talk to about this thinks I'm crazy, and I'm not talented enough to prove them wrong.

Would be a fun project though.

I doubt there is anything quicker than them yet......otherwise all the national drivers in them wouldn't be running them. ;)

LainfordExpress wrote: Well, that wasn't really what I was trying to say at all, but whatever, The point I'm trying to make is that the EFs are winning because that's what all the driving geniuses are driving, and in fact, if you took three or four of them and plopped them into B13 SE-Rs or AE86 GT-Ss one of them might win in that instead. I'm just not convinced that if you're gonna run in STC, you need an EF Si (more specifically an '89) or you're just wasting your time. But everyone I talk to about this thinks I'm crazy, and I'm not talented enough to prove them wrong. Would be a fun project though.

You must be new to the sport. Rewind a solid decade. and we did have SE-R, and Neons, and Subie 2.5RS running nationally against the Civic. Highly developed versions of each car, with top notch drivers in them. The Civic just flatout is the best car for the class, and has really been expanded upon with a great tire option and lots of development.

Well, that wasn't really what I was trying to say at all, but whatever,

Works for me since i wasnt replying to your statement. I should have quoted Jaynen rather than relying on sequence and other context clues to get it across.

Plenty of other people have asked pertinent questions that would probably shed light on the issue you brought up, but noone is replying to those.. probably because the answers point to the civic being a foregone conclusion. People who want to win arent going to handicap themselves by forgoing all the advantages of the knowledge that has accumulated about racing that car in that class. I suspect that Subrew's statement about sums it up.

Vigo wrote: People who want to win arent going to handicap themselves by forgoing all the advantages of the knowledge that has accumulated about racing that car in that class.

I think that is the biggest thing right there. No incentive to try something new, because the Civics just keep getting faster.

I was just looking at the 2012 Nationals results awhile ago and I noticed that for the most part, the STC and STS results overlapped. CRX (basically the same car) and the Miatas were quite close (would've trophied if mythical merged STC-STS) but I think the top three would've still be Civics.

Does anybody remember when STC and STS ran? Probably not the same heat. I think maybe the ran the same days but on opposite courses? Can't remember; probably not an apples-apples comparison.

This all just sprang out of being bored and reading on other sites about people thinking there are too many classes and wondering what classes should be combined. Seems to me that STS and STC are pretty close to the same thing already, and (an admittedly small) data sample seems to show that the Civic wouldn't be a clear overdog.

And of course, the whole thing could be turned on it's head if cars started getting reclassed.

subrew wrote: The Civic just flatout is the best car for the class, and has really been expanded upon with a great tire option and lots of development

I think that "great tire option" thing could get shaken up. If the new generation tires aren't as weight dependent (the 195 Toyo being special sauce compound limits other somewhat heavier cars) something crazy could happen.

Personally, im hoping for that shakeup to happen. I admit i am only a distant and slightly apathetic observer of the top levels of the sport, but that itself is partially because the kind of cars im into (not a brand or model, more of a genre) are not competitive at top levels, and if im not racing there, the only thing i care about is the cars and how something about them (parts, setup, ties, etc) might be relevant to my cars or my life. So anything that broadens the competition in that way will increase my interest.

Does anybody remember when STC and STS ran? Probably not the same heat. I think maybe the ran the same days but on opposite courses? Can't remember; probably not an apples-apples comparison.

STS ran Tuesday-Wednesday third heat, STC ran last heat Thursday-Friday. I didn't stick around after Wednesday so I don't know how the weather compared.

I definitely think the classes with a few different "answers" are more interesting. STX has a good mix. STU who would have predicted an m3 beating the boost buggies. Tristan is a local and that car is setup but it just goes to show he got first then its 25 positions of evo's and STIs then 2 more m3s

Will wrote:

LainfordExpress wrote: The AE86 has REAR WHEEL DRIVE!!1!! and tofu delivery, is probably nearly as lightweight and probably about the same power, maybe more?

Tofu delivery?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfXHiydW16E

Yes, seriously. It's kind of a 'soap opera'..but it's one about "my people". I got into anime back when I used to work at Cartoon Network, kind of an occupational hazard. OTOH, after watching the thing I understand why the "drift tax" is so high for some 80s/90s Japanese cars in the US.

Claff wrote: STS ran Tuesday-Wednesday third heat, STC ran last heat Thursday-Friday. I didn't stick around after Wednesday so I don't know how the weather compared.

The STR heat (third, first two days... I think) had some rain on the second day for about half of a time through the order.