In reply to smokindav :
To me, P71 is a momentum car. One that can be daily driven and slowly upgrade with pads and rotors, braided lines, decent tires and sway bars etc. as time and desire.
As you should be able to gather from my original post, I’m a raw beginner and have never been on a track before. Any car would be fun I’m sure.
Any G35 opinions?
How's this for a coincidence?
Between the time that I wrote my last post here and now (50 minutes), I heard a noise outside. I walked out and found a guy looking under the hood of a 2009 Accord sedan. He said it's his kid's car and he thinks it needs an engine. He asked if he can leave it here until he can get it towed. I said ok and told him that we would need to push it out of the way. He was able to drive it to the back of the building, so it's here now. He said he should probably just have it towed to the junkyard. It sound bad, and I purposely did not get his name or number. I'm pretty sure that if it were a V6 or a four with a stick, I'd have bought it by now, but it's a four cylinder automatic.
I think an E39 BMW is what you're looking for. If it HAS to be family friendly and you need to haul people, an E36/E46 might be a bit too small. Also, seems like they're demanding a higher price than an equivalent E39. Get a 525/28/30i, you get the rack and pinion steering instead of the recirculating ball steering of the V8 version. Or step up to the V8 and get a 540i. You can also find them in 6-Speed configuration and they're a lot more fun overall. Can't go wrong with any well maintained E39 though.
In reply to Woody :
It needs an engine? Sounds possible that someone is confusing a bad sensor etc. with a bad motor.
Wouldn't be the first time anyway.
In reply to ebonyandivory :
No. I heard it run. I think the kid ran it out of oil. It sounds like there's a box of hammers in the oil pan.
ebonyandivory said:In reply to smokindav :
To me, P71 is a momentum car. One that can be daily driven and slowly upgrade with pads and rotors, braided lines, decent tires and sway bars etc. as time and desire.
As you should be able to gather from my original post, I’m a raw beginner and have never been on a track before. Any car would be fun I’m sure.
Take it from someone that has a bit of experience in this area - you don't want a big giant boat for your first track car. You want something that needs minimal prep and is up to the rigors of a track day. Here's some ideas that meet those criteria and your criteria:
Nissan Sentra SE-R SpecV - comes with helical limited slip differential, Brembo brakes were optional after 2004, for earlier cars the 1990 300ZX4-piston fixed calipers bolt on with minor mods, 17" wheels required
Mazda Protege Mazdaspeed - comes with Torsen limited slip, but you should probably keep the engine stock for track use as the turbo system is basically a bolt on affair developed by Callaway, engine internals not adequate for extensive mods, no under-piston oil squirters and no forged internals
Dodge SRT-4
VW GTI MkV or newer (2006.5 or newer) – brake pads, brake fluid and some Audi TTRS brake ducts and it’s track ready
Ford Focus SVT
Subaru WRX – bolt on some used Brembos from an STI and hit the track
Acura RSX
Honda Civic Si
Mini Cooper S
BMW E36 or E46
Saturn Ion Redline
Cobalt SS (the turbo one, these might be over your purchase price but there is one in the classifieds here)
Camaro Z28
Mustang GT
For what it's worth I bought a Ford SVT Focus new in 2002 and loved that car. It had a surprisingly nice interior felt fun to drive and was my first track car. I went overboard with it but it carried 4 adults even as the 2 door version and with the seats down could carry a 55" TV in the box (back when they weren't just flat screens lol)
You can see me being followed by my buddy also in a SVT focus here. Movie heavily dated by the music and quality lol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wJ_cJB7YM0
It's definitely going to be the least expensive option I think listed so far
Why not an early 8th gen Civic SI? Good handling, LSD, K series motor with a lot of build options.
bmw88rider said:Why not an early 8th gen Civic SI? Good handling, LSD, K series motor with a lot of build options.
I’ve been keeping my eyes open for one of those but they’re still pretty expensive.
I was wondering if the RSX Type-S, Civic Si (2006-2011), Focus ST (naturally aspirated 2.3L), Cobalt SS, GTI, or Mini might be the way to go. Depending on where you live, Mazda3s of that era had rust issues, but you might be able to find a Mazdaspeed3 to squeeze into your price range. The RX-8 is great (my DD) and can definitely be had in that price range, but reliability is a bit of a question mark. If you can find one with a fresher rebuilt engine, it could work well.
The problem is the faster options are going to be less reliable and higher mileage... I'm honestly not sure which way would work best in terms of withstanding track abuse. For a Cobalt SS, I think you'd be into the older/slower supercharged variant, but I imagine you might be able to pick up the suspension, brakes, etc. from the faster, newer turbo variant. For a higher millage car that will get you to work, I might be tempted towards the RSX Type-S or Civic Si.
Regarding the track day performance, if my area is any indication, I don't think speed is an issue. If you're a semi-experienced driver and have say 200TW tires there will always be slower people out there and you'll be in the middle group. If you're on ~300TW, you might be in the slower group with some of the above options. Granted I haven't been out for a couple of years for health reasons.
G35s are great cars - easy enough to work on that I had the whole front end apart without using any word stronger than "darn"
For heavy track use, why not an RX-8?
chaparral said:
For heavy track use, why not an RX-8?
“Heavy track use”? I’ve never been on a track before and am considering a track day event in a “family-friendly” daily driver.
To answer your question, this is not a heavy track use thing nor is an RX-8 my idea of a family friendly daily driver. Both of which were qualifiers in my first post.
5th or 6th generation Civic sedan?
Easy part availability, double wishbone suspension, surprisingly good space, reliable as gravity, fun to chuck around, light (so cheap consumables). Also sedans are much less likely to be trashed.
I looked at many of the same questions recently. We are a family of four, so I wanted something that could carry all of us and work for autocross and track days.
Since my absolute requirements were rear wheel drive and a manual transmission, I kept coming back to the E36/E46 options or a G35.
The cost of BMW ownership, or at least my perceived cost scared me off of that option. I still like the G35, but I just didn't want anything that heavy.
I finally decided to just add a Miata to the fleet, and keep my same daily drivers for most of the commuting and family hauling.
Some of the cars being talked about here are WAY above 4k. I've been shopping this type of car for months, and at least around here, you can't get a Mazda 3 or any Honda product with decent maintenance/miles for anywhere near 4k. Same for the Cobalt SS, Cooper, or E36 (totally trash at that price), WRX, and GTI. But I do live in a very expensive part of the country (SF Bay).
Anyway, I'd be looking for a Focus SVT four door or mainly the Focus ST (the old one, not the new one) with the Mazda 2.3 in it. Or the Protege ES. The SVT is stretch price-wise though.
The Sentra SE-R Spec V might be an option, not really sure as my interest in Nissan products has not been high for some reason (since the 90s). An RX-8 can be had in that range, and would be the sharpest track tool, but alas they aren't true four doors and have reliability issues.
Why not keep an eye on local police auctions and check out one of the new interceptor sedans? Can be had for $3-5k, 250-300+hp stock, awd and fwd options.
I like the thought of the P71, but the way mine goes through brakes at autocross, I doubt you'd get a full track day session with just one set. If you did go that way, add lightness. Lots of lightness to be picked up swapping wheels and retrofitting it to civilian spec.
I have a couple of thoughts on this which should surprise nobody.
1. Getting a car ready is expensive. Getting a car with bigger tires and brakes ready is more expensive. I did a quick run down of a 2000 C5 Corvette vs. a 2000 Miata, both intentionally off your list but both very popular track cars. I put new Cetric blank rotors and G-log R10 pads on both and the Miata got RS4 tires and the Corvette got slightly less track focused Continentals. The Miata was $775 and the Corvette was $1215. Doing this kind of math is important when comparing cars because of point 2.
2. Most people that I know decide to either get a different track car or leave track driving behind by their 3rd to 5th event. Unless you can find someone to value what you put on the car, and you haven't worn them out yet when you sell it, prep costs are a complete write off. If you do three events in that Corvette it just cost you $400 a weekend in consumables. The point of this isn't to scare anyone away, but rather to really really really consider consumable costs when they start looking at cars. The faster you go and the bigger tires you run, the more consumables cost and there is a reason they're called consumables.
3. The closer a car is to being ready to drive HARD from the factory, the better off you are. You want a brakes/tires car if you can. Upgrading oiling and cooling and brakes and suspension from factory spec is expensive especially when your car buy in is at GRM levels. And remember, we're probably going to abandon this idea as we advance/quit this whole track thing.
4. Since the ideal is to daily the car in between events, the better the car is as a car, the better it is. Low/stiff/loud sounds cool in theory, but passing the car off to your wife to pick up the kids in something set up for the track can get old fast unless your wife is particularily awesome. The criteria for a track car and the criteria for a family car are different, they can overlap, but it's a small sliver of overlap.
Where does that leave us? With a billion options that have already been suggested. I can tell you my history of track cars as a cautionary tale. I started with my CTS-V wagon. It was expensive enough to make me nervous and capable enough to make me really nervous. I did four events and One Lap in it before deciding it was dumb and moving on. I spent about $700 in brakes, $1200 in wheels and $2k in tires. It was a great family car. My second track car was a 1990 Civic Si that I bought fully set up. I did four track weekends and a half dozen autocross events in it. I HATED driving in on the street and couldn't drive my kids around in it because my wife said no. I had to wear hearing protection while driving. That car cost me one $400 set of tires and no brake money at all. My current track car is a 2003 Accord coupe. I've done two track days, two autocrosses and 6k miles so far. $1200 in wheels and tires and $800 in brakes. The car is an exceptional daily aside from the kids complaing about the coupe part. Doesn't bother me, they're all big enough to sort it out themselves and I sit in front. The car has been great on track/autocross so far. It's not fast but it's in the same ballpark as a NA/NB Miata at the same prep level on track and about mid pack raw time autocross in my region. It's fun so far, but that may fade after the 3-5 weekends that seems to affect a lot of cars. The plan is to be at about 5 weekends and some rallycross by this time next year, so we'll see.
I don't think there is an obvious answer to this question. Some people would be happy with my Accord, others don't have the arm strength to give 10 point by's a lap on track while trying to concentrate on shifting and braking points. 
If you're going to use the car as a car, then get something that you like as a car that will work with just tires/brakes and pay attention to those costs. When it's time to upgrade you'll have a better idea which direction to go, if you don't need to upgrade, we may have a new answer.
My buddy is selling his track prepped RSX...
08 civic SI 100K plus miles... salvage title.. $5400
https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/cto/d/honda-civic-si-2008/6547701427.html
mazdeuce - Seth said:I don't think there is an obvious answer to this question. Some people would be happy with my Accord, others don't have the arm strength to give 10 point by's a lap on track while trying to concentrate on shifting and braking points.
If you're going to use the car as a car, then get something that you like as a car that will work with just tires/brakes and pay attention to those costs. When it's time to upgrade you'll have a better idea which direction to go, if you don't need to upgrade, we may have a new answer.
I spent close to a decade walking past caged Miatas in my garage. They were fantastic fun on the track, but unpleasant for anything else. I always had them registered and we have to have them inspected every two years. Once when I was on my way to inspection, I noticed that I had put less than 300 miles on onc since the past inspection. It might even have had the same gas in it. I moved the car around my garage, swept around it and dusted it. Track days that fit into my schedule were hard to come by. The cars weren't fun to own anymore. I would be much happier slowly tracking a cheap daily driver with good tires and brake pads. I already know how to point people by.
Those above that have recommended the RX-8 are totally on to something. Honestly, they're not a bad proposition if you buy an RX-8 with a blown engine.
RX-8 shells in good condition can be found for about 1,000. Get a rebuilt unit from OJ Imports in Texas for about 2.5k, install rebuilt unit and if you take care of the new motor, should give you at least 75k miles of good motoring. Will be a hell of a lot of car for 3.5k.
An RX-8 was my first manual sports car, about 6 years later, I got back into one which was totaled 2 months later. I purchased a shell for 1k and proceeded to swap things over. Asides from the initial skepticism with rotaries, I haven't found the RX-8 to be very difficult to work on. Gas mileage DOES suck though.
Hungary Bill said:The problem with the e46 is the amount of preventative maintenance it needs before tracking (coolant refresh, bushings, VANOS seals, reinforcements...). If I followed just the recommended maintenance, my (new to me) $3500 E46 330i would easily pass the $5000 mark and that's just playing catchup. Add in some performance oriented rubber and suspension and we've doubled the price of the car.
It is a great option if you can pull it off. If you could buy one from an enthusiast where all that work has been done already, that'd be the way to go.
Maybe E36, non M3? take what you saved on car and spend on those mods we were talking about?
All that is true. But mods don't translate heavily into resale. If one is patient, willing to travel, and ready to pounce, you can get a 330i that is current on maintenance and track-ready for $5k. The 330i is a great recommendation. It's pretty close in performance to the E36 M3 and is fast and comfortable. It's a helluva lot of car for the price.
There are a lot of cheaper Japanese platforms that I love, but none of them are going to be as fast or as comfortable. Anything that will see more than a couple HPDEs will need some mechanical prep or rehab.
The best deal is to just buy a used race car, assuming you can house and transport it. They're cheap, safe, and usually come with a tons (by weight) of spares. Example - my friend has been trying to sell a very very nice Mk1 MR2 SCCA ITB car for 2-3 years for $4k.
The RX-8 might be a good recommendation in someone else’s thread but as I said above, I’ve not even done a single track-day. That coupled with my request for “family-friendly” cars that can serve double duty as a daily driver AND to try my very first track experience, and that I excluded Miata’s and old ‘Vettes I think might exclude the RX-8 as well.
I appreciate the on-topic recommendations. Not to dis’ the others but I guess that’s how the internet works: you ask for a family-friendly daily driver for $4,000 that can be fun for a raw beginner on a track day and you end up with recommendations to buy $10,000 cars or other peoples’ full on’ racecars.
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