Depreciation is the killer on any new(er) car purchase. It will overwhelm operating costs. You need reliability first, fuel efficiency second. Stick with the holy quattro - buy the cleanest/lowest mile Corolla/Camry/Accord/Civic you can afford. Manual trans/4 cylinder. On a 140 mile commute any of those will net you over 30 mpg -- and they should last dang near forever if they've been reasonably maintained. Easy to work on, relatively cheap parts.
Careful.
Assuming you can get a five-year-old Prius for twelve grand, it will only take five years to pay back against a $2000, 30 mpg car. That's assuming that a $2000 car has similar running costs over the next 200,000 miles to a fairly recent Prius...
For many people, the less-depreciation-more-gasoline route works, but this is a case where it doesn't.
chaparral wrote: 140 miles per day = 35,000 miles per year just commuting, and probably 40,000 for all driving per year. That's a lot, and the fuel costs will wipe out any savings from a cheap car if it gets anything other than great mileage. 40,000 miles at 20 mpg = 2000 gallons = $8,000 per year at $4/gal. 40,000 miles at 30 mpg = 1350 gallons = $5,500 per year 40,000 miles at 40 mpg = 1000 gallons = $4,000 per year 40,000 miles at 50 mpg = 800 gallons = $3,200 per year Against a 30 M.P.G. car, a 50 M.P.G. car saves $200 per month. That's a big fraction of a car payment right there. If you can find a CRX HF, or an Insight, go for it. Otherwise you really should be looking at a Prius - even brand new.
are you factoring insurance and upkeep into that equation? my (now up to) $800 Cavalier will likely never, ever see the inside of a car wash and will never, ever get detailed beyond maybe shoveling the garbage out every month or so and hitting the interior with a quick pass from the shop vac every 6 months or so... you gotta include those costs into the total cost of ownership, too. so even if it for some reason never gets better than the 32 mpg it's getting this winter, i'm still money ahead for a long time compared to a newer vehicle that i actually want to keep looking pretty and have to carry full coverage insurance on.
Wow, completely overlooked how many miles the OP is driving.
I created a spreadsheet a while back to project depreciation and total cost of ownership... Chapparal is right about the Prius being the answer here. Any kind of serious mileage driven, the payoff is stupid fast. I was looking at several $7k-$8k Priuseseses and they payoff vs the Saturn was <3 years. I just looked at my history of car ownership and determined that I can't keep a car 3 years, so it won't matter for me.
The only thing not factored in above is taxes and insurance, where the difference between a $12K prius and a $3K beater is very significant.
This is all well and good, but I can't be the only one here who would rather drive a Civic, Accord, Camry, Corolla, Saturn, or any other econobox over a Prius. Maybe I'm weird, but driving a Prius would just make me feel like the tree-huggers won.
I think I need to develop a "driver friendliness pack" for the Prius.
Springs, bars, shocks, bushings, tires, and a chip that deactivates the power-steering above 15 mph
Do we have verification that the OP will have the same comute long enough to get the payback?
Just have to say my Jetta TDI is a lot more fun than a prius more torque, less weight, manual trans. I bought it for 6k and that was 3 years ago, I can sell it for 5-6k today and it gets 43mpg doing 80 on the freeway.
I get easily over 45/46 if I slow down
oh and I forgot to mention the WORST mileage I have gotten in 3 years is 39mpg of full city driving with the A/C on. Maintenance wise in 50,000 miles I've had to change the oil, recharge the A/C, and get the coolant system flushed. In another 15k miles it will be due for its second 100,000 mile timing belt change at 192,000 miles
It's also really nice to only fill up every 600+ miles when you are doing a lot of driving as the Jetta has a nice 15-16 gallon tank
JohnRW1621 wrote: Do we have verification that the OP will have the same comute long enough to get the payback?
I'm pretty locked into this commute for the next seven and a half years. Honestly, I never really considered a Prius... the upfront cost is awfully high. Far higher than I have initially budgeted.
My last two vehicles were an 87 Toyota pickup that I bought with about 50k miles (I drove it about 100k and sold it for $500 less than my original purchase price) and my current 96 Integra that I bought w/ 45k miles. So my tendency is to buy an unusually low mileage vehicle and sell it while it still has a little value.
Coming out of those two seat cars/truck then an original Honda Insight might be the answer.
http://tuscarawas.craigslist.org/cto/3498042461.html#.UN-X8axlwa8
http://toledo.craigslist.org/cto/3412403545.html#.UN-YIqxlwa8
http://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/cto/3505989674.html#.UN-YXaxlwa8
http://evansville.craigslist.org/cto/3457678307.html#.UN-Yfaxlwa8
http://nashville.craigslist.org/cto/3450539100.html#.UN-Yn6xlwa8
ProDarwin wrote: The only thing not factored in above is taxes and insurance, where the difference between a $12K prius and a $3K beater is very significant.
don't forget new batteries sometime soon for an early Prius
My vote would go for a saturn too but I'd suggest an Ion . My wife has had one since new(an 05') and I 've gotta say it's been dead nuts reliable. It's basically a chevy cobalt ( delta chassis and eco-tec engine ) the transmission is stout and gas mileage is pretty damn good. It's only needed routine service (brakes, oil changes, etc). We keep saying we won't replace it till it's dead but at 176K + miles It's still drives great. I will admit it has a few rattles and squeaks but what GM car doesn't. Should easily be able to find these for less than $4K.
ProDarwin wrote: Wow, completely overlooked how many miles the OP is driving. I created a spreadsheet a while back to project depreciation and total cost of ownership... Chapparal is right about the Prius being the answer here. Any kind of serious mileage driven, the payoff is stupid fast. I was looking at several $7k-$8k Priuseseses and they payoff vs the Saturn was <3 years. I just looked at my history of car ownership and determined that I can't keep a car 3 years, so it won't matter for me. The only thing not factored in above is taxes and insurance, where the difference between a $12K prius and a $3K beater is very significant.
I went from averaging 20mpg in an IS300 to averaging 55mpg in the Insight on my 25 mile round trip commute. Between the lower insurance, less gas used, and no payment I figured out I was saving almost $400 a month.
JohnRW1621 wrote: Coming out of those two seat cars/truck then an original Honda Insight might be the answer. http://tuscarawas.craigslist.org/cto/3498042461.html#.UN-X8axlwa8 http://toledo.craigslist.org/cto/3412403545.html#.UN-YIqxlwa8 http://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/cto/3505989674.html#.UN-YXaxlwa8 http://evansville.craigslist.org/cto/3457678307.html#.UN-Yfaxlwa8 http://nashville.craigslist.org/cto/3450539100.html#.UN-Yn6xlwa8
I absolutely love mine, definitely get the 5 speed though.
Does it have a back seat or much cargo space? (the insight?) One thing I do like also about my Jetta is it has quite a large trunk and could fit my daughters car seat in there rear/forward facing
Has anyone chimed in to say Elise yet?
If not... BOOM. Done.
stuart in mn wrote:Sonic wrote: Geo/Chevy Prizm. It's a Corolla in everything but the badges, and is usually priced for lessThey were good little cars (my brother had one for his kids to drive and it lasted for years and years) but they may be hard to find depending on location - I can't remember the last time I saw one in Minnesota, I think they've all rusted away here.
Depends on the year. AE101 based ones are getting thin, but you can still find the 99^ redesigns laying around if you look. I have one right now. Most of the older ones (88-92) are rusted to the ground.
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Anyways, a more practical choice would be say.... a first gen Kia Sephia. They're really a re-badged 91-94 Protege, but easier to find in nice shape, don't cost a damn thing, and they're pretty much bulletproof. Orrrr.... DansXR2 is selling his first gen Probe GT for cheap. They're reliable and get good gas mileage.
This is a good idea. F2T will last forever, and you can pretty much buy an entire rebuild for 50 bucks.
stuart in mn wrote:Sonic wrote: Geo/Chevy Prizm. It's a Corolla in everything but the badges, and is usually priced for lessThey were good little cars (my brother had one for his kids to drive and it lasted for years and years) but they may be hard to find depending on location - I can't remember the last time I saw one in Minnesota, I think they've all rusted away here.
Your right, you just don't see them here in MN very often. But as close as Iowa and I've seen several. They must not use salt on the roads there?
I just picked up a nice '00 Corolla. It spent its first several years outside of the snowbelt so the body is very solid and mechanically its very good to.
If you think driving a Prius means that "The tree huggers have won", then you are lost. Why not thing of it as "the cheapasses have won"? If you completely ignore any green/non-green aspect of owning a prius, it just makes a lot of berkeleying sense financially.
I think many "car guys" who drive them go into it with such a bad attitude they can't possibly like the car. Its not that bad.
e_pie wrote: I went from averaging 20mpg in an IS300 to averaging 55mpg in the Insight on my 25 mile round trip commute. Between the lower insurance, less gas used, and no payment I figured out I was saving almost $400 a month.
The car payment isn't a "savings". Its payment toward the value of your car, which you will partially get back when you sell it. Thats why you need to do:
(Initial value - depreciated value) + fuel consumption + insurance cost + taxes
Initial value in your case = purchase price + all interest
OHSCrifle wrote: don't forget new batteries sometime soon for an early Prius
True, but...
12K != early Prius. I'd only be worrying about battery replacement above 200k miles - or on a $4000 Prius.
also, its a simple procedure, and IIRC the price is around $2K straight from Toyota with your old core. It IS a factor, but the once-every-10-years cost is the same as the gas savings the car can produce on a yearly basis.
Don't let facts and actual numbers get in the way of a good argument. 
ProDarwin wrote: If you think driving a Prius means that "The tree huggers have won", then you are lost. Why not thing of it as "the cheapasses have won"? If you completely ignore any green/non-green aspect of owning a prius, it just makes a lot of berkeleying sense financially. I think many "car guys" who drive them go into it with such a bad attitude they can't possibly like the car. Its not that bad.
the Prius is an ugly car that was made ugly for the sole purpose of standing out from the crowd, to show the world that you care more than everyone else when you buy one.. they could have just shoved that same drivetrain in a Corolla and put a tasteful badge on it and called it good, but they had to make it look like they did just to cater to a certain crowd- which is why owning one is admitting that the tree huggers have won.
at least until this showed up at a recent Lemons race:
the Hell's Treehuggers Hybrid Davidson
That is berkleying awesome
novaderrik wrote:ProDarwin wrote: If you think driving a Prius means that "The tree huggers have won", then you are lost. Why not thing of it as "the cheapasses have won"? If you completely ignore any green/non-green aspect of owning a prius, it just makes a lot of berkeleying sense financially. I think many "car guys" who drive them go into it with such a bad attitude they can't possibly like the car. Its not that bad.the Prius is an ugly car that was made ugly for the sole purpose of standing out from the crowd, to show the world that you care more than everyone else when you buy one.. they could have just shoved that same drivetrain in a Corolla and put a tasteful badge on it and called it good, but they had to make it look like they did just to cater to a certain crowd- which is why owning one is admitting that the tree huggers have won.
Who gives a E36 M3 what it looks like. It's an appliance. Do you walk into the kitchen and just stare at your stove because it's beautiful? No. It performs its function well and that's why you like it. People keep looking for reasons to dislike the Prius, but in the end it's the cheap people who are winning out driving them.
We have 111k on our 2007 and all it has needed is oil and (little) gas. We average 48 mpg year round without effort. Winter average is about 46 and summer average is about 52. It fits a ton of crap thanks to that "ugly" shape too, which means it's more useful than a Corolla with a badge would be.
Regarding a prius or insight. With the batteries should you be more concerned with the mileage or the age of the vehicle?
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