Best disposable appliance for commute

Jaynen wrote: Just have to say my Jetta TDI is a lot more fun than a prius more torque, less weight, manual trans. I bought it for 6k and that was 3 years ago, I can sell it for 5-6k today and it gets 43mpg doing 80 on the freeway. I get easily over 45/46 if I slow down oh and I forgot to mention the WORST mileage I have gotten in 3 years is 39mpg of full city driving with the A/C on. Maintenance wise in 50,000 miles I've had to change the oil, recharge the A/C, and get the coolant system flushed. In another 15k miles it will be due for its second 100,000 mile timing belt change at 192,000 miles It's also really nice to only fill up every 600+ miles when you are doing a lot of driving as the Jetta has a nice 15-16 gallon tank

I've looked ( pretty seriously) at TDI's, but can't seem to justify the 80 - 90¢ (over 87 octane) higher per gallon price for fuel

dankspeed wrote: Regarding a prius or insight. With the batteries should you be more concerned with the mileage or the age of the vehicle?

Nobody really knows definitively because it hasn't become a prevalent problem with any of them.

wbjones wrote:

Jaynen wrote: Just have to say my Jetta TDI is a lot more fun than a prius more torque, less weight, manual trans. I bought it for 6k and that was 3 years ago, I can sell it for 5-6k today and it gets 43mpg doing 80 on the freeway. I get easily over 45/46 if I slow down oh and I forgot to mention the WORST mileage I have gotten in 3 years is 39mpg of full city driving with the A/C on. Maintenance wise in 50,000 miles I've had to change the oil, recharge the A/C, and get the coolant system flushed. In another 15k miles it will be due for its second 100,000 mile timing belt change at 192,000 miles It's also really nice to only fill up every 600+ miles when you are doing a lot of driving as the Jetta has a nice 15-16 gallon tank

I've looked ( pretty seriously) at TDI's, but can't seem to justify the 80 - 90¢ (over 87 octane) higher per gallon price for fuel

Out here it never seems to be more than 40cent difference 3.43 for regular 3.89 for diesel

Jaynen wrote: Out here it never seems to be more than 40cent difference 3.43 for regular 3.89 for diesel

3.39 for 87, 4.15 for diesel here.

Personally, I like diesels over gas in the subcompacts....

~ the same here in NC

DaveEstey wrote:

novaderrik wrote:

ProDarwin wrote: If you think driving a Prius means that "The tree huggers have won", then you are lost. Why not thing of it as "the cheapasses have won"? If you completely ignore any green/non-green aspect of owning a prius, it just makes a lot of berkeleying sense financially. I think many "car guys" who drive them go into it with such a bad attitude they can't possibly like the car. Its not that bad.

the Prius is an ugly car that was made ugly for the sole purpose of standing out from the crowd, to show the world that you care more than everyone else when you buy one.. they could have just shoved that same drivetrain in a Corolla and put a tasteful badge on it and called it good, but they had to make it look like they did just to cater to a certain crowd- which is why owning one is admitting that the tree huggers have won.

Who gives a E36 M3 what it looks like. It's an appliance. Do you walk into the kitchen and just stare at your stove because it's beautiful? No. It performs its function well and that's why you like it. People keep looking for reasons to dislike the Prius, but in the end it's the cheap people who are winning out driving them.

This.

Last I checked, this thread was about appliances. The Prius is a great one. Not what I would call "disposable", but given the OP's yearly mileage, it makes a hell of a lot of sense.

Also Prius shape isn't to stand out from the cowd, its to create a very low drag coefficient. Its why the Insight (both old and new) has a similar shape. Prius Cd is much lower than a Corolla.

My wife's cousin drives a Prius. She drives with no regard to mileage and still averages 43MPG. In my book, that's pretty impressive. I commute about 20K per year, and when I ran the numbers last year, the Prius came out as the winner, by far. When I need a new commuter, I'm definitely going to be looking at a Prius.

dankspeed wrote: Regarding a prius or insight. With the batteries should you be more concerned with the mileage or the age of the vehicle?

A little of both, but I would go with age over miles personally, as typically an unused battery just sitting will go bad long before one that is cycled often.

Also, an aftermarket (which is actually better than the OEM) battery pack for the Insight costs $2000, not terrible, but still not cheap.

Also Prius shape isn't to stand out from the cowd, its to create a very low drag coefficient. Its why the Insight (both old and new) has a similar shape. Prius Cd is much lower than a Corolla.

The Insight has the lowest Cd of pretty much any production car ever. Between the aero and super light weight I've always wanted to put some ridiculously boosted K swap in to one and go troll the Texas mile people with all their high dollar cars.

Also, they'll get wayyyyyy deep in to the 9's with a mere 450hp. :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYVaoOcarFI It's since gone faster since this vid, 9.29 at 152mph lol

e_pie wrote: The Insight has the lowest Cd of pretty much any production car ever.

... the same as the Prius (0.25). The Insight has less drag area though. Either way, both of them are exceptionally aerodynamic - not just for looks.

That video makes me lust after an Insight more. They are pretty neat.

the EV1 @ .19 is technically the lowest of any "production" car.

There is a few K20 powered insights running around and they still get great gas mileage

I had always assumed that battery packs for the Prius and Insight were much more expensive. Perhaps these warrant more consideration.

I still haven't ruled out a high-30s MPG crap box, though. (tercel, echo, accent, corolla, prizm, Saturn, etc).

Getting closer to a decision, perhaps...

DaveEstey wrote:

novaderrik wrote:

ProDarwin wrote: If you think driving a Prius means that "The tree huggers have won", then you are lost. Why not thing of it as "the cheapasses have won"? If you completely ignore any green/non-green aspect of owning a prius, it just makes a lot of berkeleying sense financially. I think many "car guys" who drive them go into it with such a bad attitude they can't possibly like the car. Its not that bad.

the Prius is an ugly car that was made ugly for the sole purpose of standing out from the crowd, to show the world that you care more than everyone else when you buy one.. they could have just shoved that same drivetrain in a Corolla and put a tasteful badge on it and called it good, but they had to make it look like they did just to cater to a certain crowd- which is why owning one is admitting that the tree huggers have won.

Who gives a E36 M3 what it looks like. It's an appliance. Do you walk into the kitchen and just stare at your stove because it's beautiful? No. It performs its function well and that's why you like it. People keep looking for reasons to dislike the Prius, but in the end it's the cheap people who are winning out driving them. We have 111k on our 2007 and all it has needed is oil and (little) gas. We average 48 mpg year round without effort. Winter average is about 46 and summer average is about 52. It fits a ton of crap thanks to that "ugly" shape too, which means it's more useful than a Corolla with a badge would be.

the interior layout absolutely s-u-c-k-s and nothing is where it should be. appliances are supposed to have basic stuff in places that makes sense- an a Prius does not fit that bill... at all.. and that interior layout is a part of the marketing they are doing to push that kind of car to a certain kind of people- or people that like to think that they are that certain kind of people. yeah, you can get used to it- but i refuse to "get used to" shifters poking out of dashboards and speedometers anywhere but behind the steering wheel.

someone pointed out the lower cd of cars like the Prius- i'll agree to that. i always look at them when i encounter them to try to pick up on any aero trickery that i can do to my Cavalier with some lawn edging or something.... but they have a bigger frontal area than something like a Corolla due to being so damn tall, so it's still pushing a bigger hole thru the air, it just does it slightly more efficiently for it's size- which is what "coefficient of drag" means. put the Prius drive train in a regular "box" car and you might lose a couple of mpg and have slightly more wind noise, but at least you'd be in a "normal" car with things in their "normal" place. and maybe they would emit a whole lot less of that dangerous smug as they drive down the road.

If you are used to Toyota, the prius layout makes sense. The shifter is a little funky but not much more different than modern minivans and much easier to shift. everything you will use regularly is on the steering wheel. We have a 2008 with 168k and for an appliance it does everything it is supposed to. I can't imagine a better vehicle for pure appliance use except the Honda fit. We have been averaging about 42mpg with my wife primarily driving it without hypermiling. I would get another one. OP, any mid 90s Japanese vehicle should do what you want.

Jaynen wrote: There is a few K20 powered insights running around and they still get great gas mileage

Yeah, with a pretty much stock K20 they'll get in to the 12's and still get 40+mpg.

http://www.lhtperformance.net/documents/lht_k-sight.html

novaderrik wrote:

DaveEstey wrote:

novaderrik wrote:

ProDarwin wrote: If you think driving a Prius means that "The tree huggers have won", then you are lost. Why not thing of it as "the cheapasses have won"? If you completely ignore any green/non-green aspect of owning a prius, it just makes a lot of berkeleying sense financially. I think many "car guys" who drive them go into it with such a bad attitude they can't possibly like the car. Its not that bad.

the Prius is an ugly car that was made ugly for the sole purpose of standing out from the crowd, to show the world that you care more than everyone else when you buy one.. they could have just shoved that same drivetrain in a Corolla and put a tasteful badge on it and called it good, but they had to make it look like they did just to cater to a certain crowd- which is why owning one is admitting that the tree huggers have won.

Who gives a E36 M3 what it looks like. It's an appliance. Do you walk into the kitchen and just stare at your stove because it's beautiful? No. It performs its function well and that's why you like it. People keep looking for reasons to dislike the Prius, but in the end it's the cheap people who are winning out driving them. We have 111k on our 2007 and all it has needed is oil and (little) gas. We average 48 mpg year round without effort. Winter average is about 46 and summer average is about 52. It fits a ton of crap thanks to that "ugly" shape too, which means it's more useful than a Corolla with a badge would be.

the interior layout absolutely s-u-c-k-s and nothing is where it should be. appliances are supposed to have basic stuff in places that makes sense- an a Prius does not fit that bill... at all.. and that interior layout is a part of the marketing they are doing to push that kind of car to a certain kind of people- or people that like to think that they are that certain kind of people. yeah, you can get used to it- but i refuse to "get used to" shifters poking out of dashboards and speedometers anywhere but behind the steering wheel. someone pointed out the lower cd of cars like the Prius- i'll agree to that. i always look at them when i encounter them to try to pick up on any aero trickery that i can do to my Cavalier with some lawn edging or something.... but they have a bigger frontal area than something like a Corolla due to being so damn tall, so it's still pushing a bigger hole thru the air, it just does it slightly more efficiently for it's size- which is what "coefficient of drag" means. put the Prius drive train in a regular "box" car and you might lose a couple of mpg and have slightly more wind noise, but at least you'd be in a "normal" car with things in their "normal" place. and maybe they would emit a whole lot less of that dangerous smug as they drive down the road.

Not to pick on you directly, and i really hope you see the same humor in this as i do, but...

You're using a Cavalier as a base upon which to point out how terrible a Prius is.

I lol'd HARD!!!!

In reply to Swank Force One:

To be fair, the bigger more expensive 90s GM crap was quite aerodynamic and lightweight for its time, a Bonneville/88/LeSabre is something like 3450 wet, seats 6 in a pinch and pulls mid-high 20s on the highway with an 3/4 of a rover V8 made of cast iron under the hood.

I would also like to point out that a cavalier/sunfire feels much more solidly constructed than a Prius, the doors on any $25000 car should not ring when you shut them. Hell, my Yugo feels like a sound deadened bank vault in comparison. Ive rode in one quite a bit, the Prius is not a pleasant car on the highway considering its price and size.

I've been forced to accept a rental Prius a time or 3.

"OK - I'll take a downgrade, or an upgrade. A PT Cruiser, I don't care, just anything other than a Prius"

And they're awful in every regard. But, they provide insight (not a hybrid joke) into what matters to the other 99.9% of the drivers on the road who aren't driving enthusiasts.

The point of the Prius is to be an appliance for the convenience of mobility which escapes (not another hybrid joke) the general gestalt of a "car" one has to "be involved with" to operate.

And in this regard it is as near a polar opposite as I've experienced, to cars I enjoy.

novaderrik wrote: the interior layout absolutely s-u-c-k-s and nothing is where it should be. appliances are supposed to have basic stuff in places that makes sense- an a Prius does not fit that bill... at all.. and that interior layout is a part of the marketing they are doing to push that kind of car to a certain kind of people- or people that like to think that they are that certain kind of people. yeah, you can get used to it- but i refuse to "get used to" shifters poking out of dashboards and speedometers anywhere but behind the steering wheel.

We had several 1st gen prii at work and they were certainly better than walking if you had to go more than 10 blocks. It was laid out like a regular car so anyone can get in it and go. All the gimicks that make the newer ones cool mean if someone is new to it or doesn't drive it often it will take them a while to figure out how to get it out of the parking space.

DaveEstey wrote:

dankspeed wrote: Regarding a prius or insight. With the batteries should you be more concerned with the mileage or the age of the vehicle?

Nobody really knows definitively because it hasn't become a prevalent problem with any of them.

Perfect answer!

I will admit, the main reason i own an Insight rather than a Prius is for the driving enjoyment factor. It's an 1800 lb honda hatch with a 5spd.

It's also faster, handles better, gets better mileage, and is much more comfortable and ergonomic than the CRX HF i also had this year (and sold). I dont know why people always bring those up when talking about hybrid alternatives. Objectively, its a E36 M3box compared to any hybrid ive ever seen. If you want something that drives like a CRX but better, dont give up on hybrids, buy an Insight.

Having said that, i still bought a hybrid, on purpose, love it, and it's become one of my top three favorite cars that ive owned out of about 50 (not kidding). AND, i would LOVE to have a 2nd gen Prius for my fiancee. Ive driven them and worked on them (as much as they need work.. oil changes, thats it!) and didnt find anything dealbreaker about it. I like the looks of the 2nd gen (other than wheels) and they have a very useful amount of cargo space. If someone cant figure out how to drive a prius, they are a damn idiot and thats all there is to it. There is forward and backward on the shifter. Put it in forward gear and push the accelerator pedal, and IT GOES FORWARD. AMAAAAAAAAAAAZZZZZZZZZZIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!

I have to admit that one of the reasons hybrids appeal to me (ON TOP of all the regular go fast feel good things i like about other cars) is that i just take satisfaction in how they work. I like start/stop, regenerative braking, electric motor torque at low rpm, electric power steering, and just efficient design in general. I like thinking about how the system is working. It's an intellectual delight, not visceral. Having said that, you can still go fast in a hybrid if you care to. I drove my stock Insight faster than the vast majority of the traffic where i live. I got it to 90+ once a day and topped it out (~110) every few weeks or so when i felt the urge. It got ~38mpg@95mph. It also got 38mpg if you went flooring it around in all city driving. 38 was the lowest i ever saw from it. I averaged around 50 normally, and that includes my 90mph driving style.

The insight is probably the most mod-friendly hybrid there is. You can take complete control of the electric motor functions, you can upgrade the battery pack, you can turbo it, you can put a k20 in it, you can put an acura TL v6 in the BACK of it. Basically, you can do whatever you're capable of doing to it.

So what it really comes down to as an enthusiast is put up or shut up. Most the cars ive ever bought started out slow and ill-handling. I dont think ive bought a single car that was actually fast or handled well when i got it. But quite a few have made dramatic transformations, and it's 100% my doing. I rarely even buy aftermarket parts. Coming from that, an insight or a prius does not look like a brick wall blocking all fun. It just looks like a new learning curve. It's fine to say it's just not what you want, but tread carefully lest you label yourself a bought-not-built do-nothing who cant get anything out of a car that wasnt built into it.

As for the budget, i paid $3800 for mine in early 2010 and it now has 337k miles.

I haven't read all of this, so i might be duplicating....but the ultimate appliance is of course a Camry. My wife had a 4cyl '93 model that she drove for 15 years..it was indestructible. It averaged about 32 to 34mpg in normal driving. They are practically free these days.

Should I consider the first generation Civic Hybrid? (I've seen a few on CL and they are cheaper than similar Priuses... maybe a reason for that??)

PS122 wrote: Should I consider the first generation Civic Hybrid? (I've seen a few on CL and they are cheaper than similar Priuses... maybe a reason for that??)

They are less reliable than the Prius, especially with an auto. They also get less gas mileage. The battery pack is an issue for sure. There are internet sources on diagnosing/repairing the Honda battery packs... the issues are pretty common.

If you are looking for a cheap econobox, I'd say look at the Saturn Ion as well, the best part of it is there is no drift tax. When I was hunting a car for the kiddo Civics/Proteges/Corollas etc in the price range I was looking at were well over 200K miles. Ions under 100K went for about the same money. Earlier Saturns were cheaper but were generally high mileage and rough.

One of my specs was ABS, the Saturn was the only one I could find which came with both ABS and traction control (which may or may not be important to you). In the research I did, the only gripes were the ignition lock cylinders wearing out and the CVT transmissions barf pretty quick (the one I bought has the Aisin 5 speed which is bulletproof). Otherwise the damn things just keep running.

The Ecotec appears to be a well thought out design (it's about time, GM). Again looking at the one I got, at ~150K there are no leaks. None. Not the engine, not the transmission, no oil mist at any of the A/C fittings, nothing. The CV boots are original and not cracked etc. It doesn't smoke. The radiator has a small spot on the right lower corner that's damp but that's because the PO ran over something and bent it.

The interior is cheap feeling, but so what? It's not something you'd buy as a luxury car.

The car hasn't proven itself yet, but so far I have a pretty good feeling about it. Well, once I got all the scuzz cleaned out of the interior, that is.

Vigo wrote: If someone cant figure out how to drive a prius, they are a damn idiot and thats all there is to it. There is forward and backward on the shifter. Put it in forward gear and push the accelerator pedal, and IT GOES FORWARD. AMAAAAAAAAAAAZZZZZZZZZZIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!

Except if you do what you do in most push button start cars - sit in it and push the button to start it - it just sits there beeping blankly at you. The first time I had to drive one I ran into that. You have to put your foot on the brake to start it. Never ran into that before or since, and it seems like they could have had one of the half dozen screens flash "put foot on brake to start" but no it just beeps.

Still, I think they're good for appliances, and would love to have a 1st gen Insight. Some day.