Best track day car?

All the talk about E30s I have the thought brewing in the back of my head as to possibly get one later down the road. I will always love Miatas and that will never change, but from what I hear, the E30 has a character all of it's own and it seems to be pretty damn appealing to a lot of people. The Miata is just so forgiving though and it's always fun to have the top down, well, unless it raining.

Vigo wrote: Sounds like a really expensive way (wheels, tires, brakes) to go fairly slow, at least for the 3rd gens. I think the 4th gen is a decent option.

Uh, it'd annihilate a Miata (I bet) if you matched the dollar amounts put in. We're talking double the power for only an extra 1000 pounds of weight with triple the torque.

Edit- I don't road race a ton, but compare the american iron lower end series to a spec miata for times.

motomoron wrote: Here's all the cars I have from old to new: - 1962 Austin Healey Sprite hot rod. Lots of motor and suspension. - 1990 Mazda Miata. Bolt-on power, full FM suspension and bracing. - 1998 BMW M3. NASA TTC + track time car. Take out the roll bar and weld in a cage, add a wing and splitter and go race GTS2. - 1999 Radical Prosport. SCCA C sports racer for regional club racing. - 2001 Toyota Tacoma. Tows race car. The M3 is the track car. Why? while it feels like a pig if I drive it a week after I've driven the Radical, that's not a fair comparison. It's fast enough that you can give yourself a thrill if you're ~really~ using the whole thing, once you improve all the systems they're stone-reliable, and they're stout enough that w/ a roll bar/FIA seat/HANS/6-point harness - if you have The Big One you'll probably be OK. Parts are readily available, and lots of people drive 'em. This season I've been out on Toyo RA1s for a couple days, Hoosier R6s for the NASA TTs, and a day using up a set of completely beat-down Dunlop Direzza Star Specs. It's a different car on each set of wheels. For reference, on Hoosiers I'm doing low 1'26s at Summit, and my best was a 2'16.5" at VIR full. So I'm not the fastest guy - but w/o aero and with a stock 3.23 diff I'm doing OK. If you do NASA Mid-Atlantic events you'll have loads of people to chase and be chased by, and to BS about the car in the paddock. And they look good and sound great. Also - if you spend a bazillion bucks developing a car and want out, it's a car for there's always a ready market for autocross/track/TT/NASA/BMWCCA Club Racing/SCCA prepared cars. I love mine, and through instructing I've been in all manner of cars - and I like the e36 M3 best.

I like your choices...I'm trying to get my hands on a MINT 95 M3 Coupe with low miles... But it's an AUTOMATIC.. An elderly Gentleman drives it on base all the time.

Hmmm.. I wonder how much a Auto-to-5Sp swap will cost...

M3Loco wrote: Hmmm.. I wonder how much a Auto-to-5Sp swap will cost...

Transmission, flywheel, clutch, slave, pedal set, shifter, linkage and time.

I would not bother looking for a mint 95. I'd be after the nicest, cleanest 96+ I could find. I'd put 245/40/17's on all four corners, add an X brace. The S52 is a better motor and all GRM'ers are going to replace the stock suspension anyway.

motomoron wrote: Here's all the cars I have from old to new: - 1962 Austin Healey Sprite hot rod. Lots of motor and suspension. - 1990 Mazda Miata. Bolt-on power, full FM suspension and bracing. - 1998 BMW M3. NASA TTC + track time car. Take out the roll bar and weld in a cage, add a wing and splitter and go race GTS2. - 1999 Radical Prosport. SCCA C sports racer for regional club racing. - 2001 Toyota Tacoma. Tows race car.

My list has read like a broken record lately:

1989 325is with SE30 suspension
1997 328is with Gruppe N suspension
1998 M3 that evolved from street car to full IP race car
1993 325is that was supposed to be a Spec36 that got sold because I needed money for slicks
1990 325i that evolved into a full CM race car
1990 Porsche 964 C2 that serves as a DE instructing car

Now I'm looking at SRFs or other spec series to lower my racing costs. WTF is wrong with me?

So far, it appears that the perfect track day car is just like food- everyone has their personal preference.

Nothing wrong with that.

I'd never do a BMW, since I don't like them. I've never liked any pony car, so that's out. Between an Alfa Spider and a Miata- not sure- they are both cool in their own right, and speed is relative.

Love the GTV that I have to track. Would also consider a GTV6, since they are fast and balanced.

Have thought about a formula or sports racer, and since a track car is already at the head of the pack in terms of practicaluity- seems reasonable.

If I had to do it all again, I think the track choice would come down to a Spider or a Miata. And since I prefer to drive an Alfa vs. a Miata in a spirited manner, it would be an Alfa Spider. Built right, it can also double as a vintage race car.

Since the point is to have fun, both will do the job prefectly.

And if the car had to be brand new, any B-spec car would be a blast.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: The E30. It has a roof. It is strong. It can bounce off armco and keep on going. It is faster than spec944s or spec Miatas... (note they are lapping them pretty damn quickly in the video below...). It is reliable. It is not too fast for a beginner. They can be made a whole crapload faster with just time and money. Example A: E30s Duking it out at the Glen Go buy one before they are all gone.

Man. What a great race video. Those folks must have been having a blast. It was neat to see how the momentum changes yielded position changes. Take a turn a little too wide and scrub off speed? Someone would most likely take the position on the inside. Fun to watch. Thanks for posting.

alfadriver wrote: Since the point is to have fun, both will do the job prefectly.

I feel my focus slowly shifting. The point is becoming to win. That would be fun. I guess that is off-topic as the OP said "Track Day Car" not race car... but since I'm not super wealthy, I am stuck using the same tool for both most of the time. I try to use the 911 for DE but it is pretty and I'd like to keep it that way. My race car is brutal and honestly, a bit too fast for track days. The closing rate on a Miata can be quick enough that they don't even know I'm coming and it is no fun having to check-up at every corner so as not to frighten the less aware. I never realized that race cars make E36 M3ty track day cars until I noticed that I was the only one "recovering" from a session.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Since the point is to have fun, both will do the job prefectly.

I feel my focus slowly shifting. The point is becoming to win. That would be fun. I guess that is off-topic as the OP said "Track Day Car" not race car... but since I'm not super wealthy, I am stuck using the same tool for both most of the time. I try to use the 911 for DE but it is pretty and I'd like to keep it that way. My race car is brutal and honestly, a bit too fast for track days. The closing rate on a Miata can be quick enough that they don't even know I'm coming and it is no fun having to check-up at every corner so as not to frighten the less aware.

Track day driving vs. winning races are not the same thing at all. So one needs to define what you are doing.

Besides, speed is relative- driven well, I'm sure there are people out there who would not be road blocks to you in their Alfa.

And speed is relative- what one sees as fun driving isn't to another.

I don't race, so you closing on me at a rapid pace means nothing to me in terms of how I feel about the car, or if I'm having fun at a track day.

alfadriver wrote: I don't race, so you closing on me at a rapid pace means nothing to me in terms of how I feel about the car, or if I'm having fun at a track day.

I guess. I wasn't really replying directly to you - I just happened to realize that my ideal track car isn't my race car at all. It is a weapon fo exactly one scenario.

I spent Monday doing a test/tune in track day traffic with my CM race car so the idea that it was miserable to drive it for an extended period in slower traffic is fresh in my mind.

Javelin wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: No problems putting my top down with my roll bar miata here... No visibility issues either...

Big difference between whatever you have in an NB and a hardtop-fitting Hard Dog in an NA, but whatever.

Mine fits with a hardtop, and there's other options out there than the Hard Dog HHHCHTHRISLDFKJFIWELIJSDFLKJSDGKLHSDGAWESOMEELEVENTYCROSSES roll bar.

I've driven a turbo N/A with hardtop and the aforementioned Hard Dog, and it too, was fine in terms of visibility. No, it's not awesome visibility, but every car has some sort of compromise.

It's just personal experiences. I get it, you hated your Miata. I'm honestly not overly fond of mine either, nor am i convinced that it's the best option for a track whore.

Just sharing experiences, no need for the faces.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

alfadriver wrote: I don't race, so you closing on me at a rapid pace means nothing to me in terms of how I feel about the car, or if I'm having fun at a track day.

I guess. I wasn't really replying directly to you - I just happened to realize that my ideal track car isn't my race car at all. It is a weapon fo exactly one scenario. I spent Monday doing a test/tune in track day traffic with my CM race car so the idea that it was miserable to drive it for an extended period in slower traffic is fresh in my mind.

I figured that- just putting the "want" into perspective.

If going uuber fast beyond your vision is fun- there are a ton of super fast cars out there to choose from. Or if fun is managing a small, low hp car, there are a ton of those, too.

But it's imortant to know where you intend to drive it. I would think twice about brining a Ford GT to an Alfa club event at Waterford Hills. Just like I would think twice about bringing a stock-ish Spider to a Mustang gathering at Road America. I intend to have fun, not be bored or scared of the other drivers.

Just like you want to race, and winning is important to that as part of the fun.

Back to- what are the core requirements?

What's an SRF?

Jaynen wrote: What's an SRF?

Spec Racer Ford. Been around since the 80's when they were Renault powered.

Jaynen wrote: What's an SRF?

True... one arguement I have for keeping the E30 is as a training means for eventually going w2w racing. SRF looks fun, but I'd probably go with the even cheaper F500 or F600. As much as SE30 looks fun and cheap, running the numbers, F500 will be cheaper, expecially on the repair side. An engine rebuild is a fraction of an M20's cost.

We are digressing somewhat away from "track day" but what is the cost of running something like a SRF or F500/F600 compared to even doing spec e30 or spec miata?

I guess it depends on your area as well how many events you can do with one and what classes are popular.

Do these cars qualifie for any time trial based classes also?

The above is why I like the Palatov D4, would love to do time trial and hill climb stuff someday even more than the w2w thing I guess

Edit: Interesting on F500's front page is they have an autox class too called F-mod are they really the same cars or dramatically different setup paths

Ian F wrote: True... one arguement I have for keeping the E30 is as a training means for eventually going w2w racing. SRF looks fun, but I'd probably go with the even cheaper F500 or F600. As much as SE30 looks fun and cheap, running the numbers, F500 will be cheaper, expecially on the repair side. An engine rebuild is a fraction of an M20's cost.

F600 maybe, F500 - I can't even stand the sound of them from the paddock. It's like a drill boring into my mind.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

Ian F wrote: True... one arguement I have for keeping the E30 is as a training means for eventually going w2w racing. SRF looks fun, but I'd probably go with the even cheaper F500 or F600. As much as SE30 looks fun and cheap, running the numbers, F500 will be cheaper, expecially on the repair side. An engine rebuild is a fraction of an M20's cost.

F600 maybe, F500 - I can't even stand the sound of them from the paddock. It's like a drill boring into my mind.

F500 may be cheap, but never underestimate the annoyance of those engines. F600 might be ok if you don't have to be around F500s

edit - back on topic - V8 MGB GT. tin top, handling of a momentum car with under 7lbs/hp.

Actually an e36 would be good. Good driving cars. They're around the bottom of the depreciation curve so you can pick up non-M versions under $2k, sell off bits and pieces and get about half of it back (you'll probably need it for cooling system refurb, suspension and tires.

Yeah sound wise alone I think I would have to go F600. What happened with the SCCA proposals on that?

oldtin wrote: Actually an e36 would be good. Good driving cars. They're around the bottom of the depreciation curve so you can pick up non-M versions under $2k, sell off bits and pieces and get about half of it back (you'll probably need it for cooling system refurb, suspension and tires.

This. They are CHEAP right now. Cheaper and better performing than an E30. I'm DDing a 328i right now, and am amazed just how capable they are with good bushings tires and dampers.

I'd go with an E36 if I were to do it again. A bit heavier so I tad more $ on the consumables side, but so many more upgrade options than the E30 when you really start digging. Wheels and tires are easier. Arguably a better car bone stock vs. a modded E30.

My preference towards the F500 is somewhat personal. I'm friends with a guy who runs one(and builds them) so I'd have a little bit of a head start on the knowledge base. I might try F600 later, but the buy-in is much more. It's not too hard to find a current F500 with a log book for ~$5K. An F600 runs about 2x that at least.

The last I read, the F600 proposal will go through for 2013. Basically a slightly tweaked version of the F500 rules. All GCR classes are eligible of TT events. I asked my buddy about it and he comment was basically about the height of the car, the fact it's an open cockpit and the average height of the guard rails/cables that line many of the HC courses around here.

If my E30 ever gets a roll bar, it'll definitely be TT-legal.

I like this idea with the e36's also

http://www.e36v8.com/

I's been mentioned, but I second the idea of a dedicated track monster like the Palatov guys are building. Their Pikes Peak car is a monster.