In reply to Datsun1500:
Not that it even matters, My original statement was meant in reference to general Dealer BS, like market adjustment fees. I may have misunderstood what Weary was saying originally but even now, knowing what has happened, it is still a E36 M3ty way to do business. Thats it. Lets get back to the original issue. I'm done.
The thing about a price negotiated over the phone: unless you record the conversation there's no proof. For that reason I'd suggest doing it via email, that way both parties have a record.
If the price jumped $5k that's just complete bullE36 M3. Rest assured that not all dealers are like that, it can even come down to individual salespeople causing problems. It's in their best interest to find these people and get rid of them before they alienate the whole planet, many times management is looking for a good reason to can them but it's tough without proof.
Which brings us to the Luftwaffe so called 'joke': THAT is absolutely inexcuseable and needs to go to BMW Corporate. You can bet your last dime they won't see that as funny. Not even a little bit. Name names; be ready to make their lives hell.
singleslammer wrote: Not that it even matters, My original statement was meant in reference to general Dealer BS, like market adjustment fees.
I don't get that sentiment, either. Nobody thinks the buyer is being a greedy shiny happy person for offering the dealer a price below MSRP. That's a "market adjustment", too. You're telling the dealer that you're sure you can find that same car elsewhere for less, so he needs to adjust his price downward.
So why is it automatically douchey for dealers to ask above MSRP for a very popular car?
I think people who buy a car for a marked-up price are idiots. But I don't think that automatically means the dealer is a greedy shiny happy person.
Curmudgeon wrote: Name names; be ready to make their lives hell.
I fully agree. This person and his superiors will have a hard time holding on to their jobs. I'm freaking serious.
Oh, and about dealership laws: those were put in place to protect the dealerships from the manufacturers. Put it this way: at one time it was legal for a manufacturer to demand of a dealership various things (appearance, sales quotas, stocking parts, providing repairs etc) then sell a vehicle directly to a customer. That kind of thing will put a dealership out of business in a hurry.
Tesla has a major problem which will become more and more apparent as they try to move more downmarket with the 3 (if it ever gets to market): with no dealer network to provide local repairs they are going to find themselves in a bit of a pickle.
For instance, say someone here in The Armpit wants to buy a 3 in the mid- $30's: sure they can if they take delivery from Tesla directly. Once they get their pride and joy home, it becomes glaringly apparent the first time it breaks down (and the Model S does break down!) the nearest repair facilities are in Raleigh NC or Atlanta. Umm... that means at least 2 days downtime just moving the damn thing back and forth. Sure Tesla will supply a loaner, but it's got to come from one of those facilities and in the meantime the owners are walking. Since they have things to do they aren't gonna like that and unlike the typical S owner they won't necessarily be able to roll something else out of the garage to take its place.
So Mr and Mrs Consumer will look real hard at buying, say, a Ford Edge for roughly the same price (there's 3 Ford dealers in the local area) or if you want to compare pure electrics a Nissan Leaf (again 3 local dealers).
I don't see Tesla moving past their 'niche manufacturer' status unless Musk starts looking at establishing a dealer network. In fact, not doing so could conceivably put him out of business.
Curmudgeon wrote: The thing about a price negotiated over the phone: unless you record the conversation there's no proof. For that reason I'd suggest doing it via email, that way both parties have a record.
I have the discount and the incentive in email form, they put all the other stuff in once I physically got on site. I would not have driven out without with that.
I am tied of this thread and its just making me cranky. I am just going to ignore the rest of it. Talk amongst yourselves.
In reply to Duke:
That is a good point. I, personally, wouldn't purchase a car over MSRP but I see what you. The ones that stick in my mind are the cars (like the BMW 1M) that were marked up a huge percentage over MSRP. Maybe that was BMWs fault for selling it a low cost(relatively) and a low volume. The dealers then took advantage and road the supply/demand curve out to where it was supposed to be. Oh well...
Oh, it happens, you're correct. And often it is done by generally douchey dealers. But in extreme situations like the 1M, I think that douchey buyers play their role, too, in driving the demand-price up.
Many years ago I bought a new Mazda 626 for my wife. It was one of those advertised leftover deals advertised in the paper. 16 cars in stock, take your pick, all the same price. I walked in with the ad right at closing time and wrote a check for the car. I picked out the one in the showroom. Went back early the next morning with my trailer to pick up the car. Wife was working and I figured that would be the easiest way to get the car home, unusual way to pick up a new car-yes, but I've done it before. They had already cashed my check, but the car was still in the showroom with people sitting in it. They put up an unbelievable fight about getting more money out of me for things like dealer prep and document fees. I opened the front glass doors myself, told the family in the car to get the F out of my car, and made a big scene. They threatened to call the cops, but quickly backed down when I said that would be a great idea, because I would love to have police testimony when I went to the attorney general. As I was loading the car on the trailer, the office lady came running out with my RMV1 form and offered to get it registered for me. As a rule, I don't let dealerships register my cars anymore. Bought a work van and found out 9 months later the wrong VIN was on my title. Bought a Saab and the registration said Saab 300D. Both incidents cost me money, so never again.
tr8todd wrote: I opened the front glass doors myself, told the family in the car to get the F out of my car, and made a big scene.
I would've said something more like "Sorry but I'm going to need my car now, this dealership has sold it to me as you can see on the paperwork here, but they're not letting me take it out of here for some reason. Personally, if I were you, I might consider a dealership that makes the purchase process easier than this."
This is almost as bad as the time my parents got whacked by F&I. How to make a $25,000 car a $30,000 car.
tr8todd, that's wild.
I've only acquired two new car sin my life, one leased from VW and one bought from Subaru. I hold each experience out as a model against which to judge other consumer experiences, they were that good. Leased a VW Jetta Wolfsburg in late '06 when they had one of those $199 lease ads. That was the deal, although I paid slightly more as I paid nothing down. I was in and out in about an hour. Got exactly what I wanted even though they had to get it from another dealership.
Bought a new Outback 3.6R. Was hard to find one, we found one, went and looked, test drove it back to back with the 2.5, and bought it. Subaru doesn't dicker these days very much. It was also the only 3.6R in town. The price we paid was fair and was the advertised price. There was mention of a possible $500 of incentives, but the salesman checked and said no dice before we bought the car. It made me want to buy another Subaru frankly.
Now, compare that with the dealerships I've contacted lately, mostly GM dealerships. They don't like to even talk on the phone until they have all kinds of information about me, and then they keep calling me and leaving messages to come in and check out this or that. Its such a turn off from the brand. Part of me wants to have fun with it but the other part of me feels sorry for the salespeople who deal with such pressure and may really need to make a sale before the end of the month, so I don't.
Appleseed wrote:wearymicrobe wrote: Then they made a Luftwaffe joke in front of me a Jewish guy...SERIOUSLY???
Luftwaffe joke, unless somehow aimed at Jewish individuals wouldn't really make any sense to be upset Weary. Just saying, if it were a concentration/gas/cremation joke I could understand....but a Luftwaffe joke shouldn't.
yamaha wrote:Appleseed wrote:Luftwaffe joke, unless somehow aimed at Jewish individuals wouldn't really make any sense to be upset Weary. Just saying, if it were a concentration/gas/cremation joke I could understand....but a Luftwaffe joke shouldn't.wearymicrobe wrote: Then they made a Luftwaffe joke in front of me a Jewish guy...
Depends on just what it was...considering he was in a BMW dealership I could imagine some pretty nasty potential situations.
Yeah, I'm seeing zero upside to making a Nazi joke of any kind, let alone in front of a Jewish person.
In reply to Duke:
The Luftwaffe existed before the nazis, just as it still exists today..... 
Suddenly... this thread needs hot jewish chicks singing irreverent tunes that totally are on-topic!
Passive aggressive joke.
They "win" either way. It gets under Weary's skin and upsets him. They win. Or he calls them out on it, in which they feint ignorance. "B-b-but the Luftwaffe is just Air Force in German." They skate away from it unscathed. They still win.
When making comments with Nazi and Nazi implied connotations in the presence of a Jew, the implications of how it will be perceived should be known, especially to people who deal with the public as a requirement of their emlpoyment.
The only "good" experience I have had at dealerships purchasing a new car has been Subaru. Typically it seems import dealerships are slightly more buyer friendly than domestics although they seem to be getting bad too these days. My Mazda Miata purchase was a nightmare. I walked several times only to have the dealer call me back days later to renegotiate. They wouldn't accept the Ford employee discount (still partially owned by Ford back then), they refused the Mazda Motorsports discount. They tried the $1200 fabric protector and paint sealant package and the ever popular $500 pin stripes. They wanted to apply the rust protection in the worst way which I think was $800.00. I would walk out they would call. Finally in the end, with the paperwork all done the addition was off, $300.00 in their favor. Honest mistake? I don't know.
I would actually like to get the new 2016 Miata ND available later this year but I can't even imagine the monumental Mt Everest pile of BS one will have to put up with to get even MSRP on a new redesigned, latest/ greatest, and well received Miata with good reviews. Guess I will be waiting a few years.
when I leased my Leaf, dude negotiated through VPP via E-mail, picked me up at home (45 minute drive) and I was back on the road with my Leaf including a test drive in 45 minutes.
Feedyurhed wrote: I would actually like to get the new 2016 Miata ND available later this year but I can't even imagine the monumental Mt Everest pile of BS one will have to put up with to get even MSRP on a new redesigned, latest/ greatest, and well received Miata with good reviews. Guess I will be waiting a few years.
I'd say the hype is only about as much as the Toyobaru had, so you can expect a similar pattern of gouging...so they should be down to actual MSRP in about two years.
In reply to Appleseed:
Yes, but at what point is it an overreaction that is to blame?
I'm just intrigued at how a joke including an air force that has existed for 100 years has any bearing as an insult to a group explicitly wronged by the masters of said air force for a measly 9 year span. If that were the case, one could fathom that it either didn't make sense to include the Luftwaffe in a joke, or Mercedes, VW, BMW, AutoUnion, etc as companies would all be equally as offensive.
If you take my intrigue as offensive, I cannot really help you. I'm just an shiny happy person that enjoys belittling people for a lack understanding history. 
Perhaps I spoke to the right person at the right dealership at the right time. Solon,OH BMW treated my family very well, better then any other dealership. No BS and they would invite us to the fancy events, keep in mind this was 10 years ago and I have moved and never dealt with them again. New Motors is the local BMW/Subaru/VW (formerly KIA) I despise them and will never do another deal. They are so arrogant. I went 100 miles to another dealership to avoid their BS.
In reply to yamaha:
Well, OK, technically that's correct... but you can't deny the implication.
In reply to Duke:
I think you could actually, but its up in the air(pun intended) as we aren't privy to what the alleged joke was.....
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