In reply to bwh998:
Did you actually time it? That was the draw to muscle cars, seemed faster than they really were.
I think it has something to do with the squealing tires, soft suspension causing the rear to squat and the front to raise and twist plus the sound of an American V8 all add up to seeming faster than it really was.
I was hoping that list included the 69 Z28 Ive heard and read from many sources that the 302 was actually quicker in the quarter than many of its big block brethren.
Im pretty hick but even I get tired of hearing a bunch of good ole boys try and talk about 3/4 race cams, cheater slicks, double pumpers, NAWS, BLOWERS, borin and strokin, big blocks, and headers, and having no idea what they are talking about.
Its like when a dumbass gets a word of the day calendar and wants to sound smarter so he walks around all day trying to figure out how to use it properly in a sentence.
In reply to stuart in mn:
Ive had the pleasure of following a few "stock" racers build, and youd be surprised what they do with a "stock" engine.
Ive heard of major port work then having to go back and make it look like its untouched and cams that ramp so fast they literally throw the valve open so they can get more lift than measured.
GIZMO on ls1tech has a build thread and a lot of info on a stock class LT1, not a lot of trickery going on in his but he hints at what some of his fellow racers are doing and whats going on in some "stock" classes. It also shows how far a properly setup goes compared to the tim allen approach of MOE POWA!
I think he trapped like 94 in the 1/8th at over 3000lbs, on a "stockl internals" LT1. Which means unported heads, and I think they got a little wiggle room with the cam but had to keep it at stock lift. I remember him mentioning picking up time by messing with the stock brakes, like buying the lightest replacement rotors, turning them to cut material, and making sure they are smooth so there is less rolling resistance.
wlkelley3 wrote: In reply to bwh998: Did you actually time it? That was the draw to muscle cars, seemed faster than they really were. I think it has something to do with the squealing tires, soft suspension causing the rear to squat and the front to raise and twist plus the sound of an American V8 all add up to seeming faster than it really was.
exactly, and in the mind of a teenager that is what makes a car fast
Our $2013 Challenge TR7 ran 13.5 in the quarter mile. Not that fast by Challenge standards, but it bested every Muscle car time listed on those sheets. I know the tires come into play but dang we ran on autocross tires, not drag slicks. Oh, And we did it in a TR7.
Ah, the infamous one year only Chevy 302. Homologated for the Trans Am Road race series, it was quite the street fighter. I've seen them beat other small blocks and give big blocks a run for there money.
Back in high school, a friend took a Pontiac SOHC I6 and built it up some, dropped in a Chevy II wagon and had an almost unbeatable stoplight to stoplight racer. Did well in 1/8-mile but ran out of steam on 1/4-mile and V8's would pass it in the last part.
More "fast" car facts, The 1986 Ferrari Testarossa turned the quarter mile in 13.2, the
1986 Lamborghini Countach LP5000 QV turned the Quarter mile in 13.5. I have built three different $2k cars that were faster, probably handle better, get better fuel economy and are definitely more dependable! But I'd trade in a heartbeat 
I think GRM needs to bring one of these exotic car rental places to the challenge to provide benchmarks
Wasn't there a VW Beetle back in the late 60's/early 70's that used to kill the muscle cars at the drags. Ran in the low 12s I guess. Must have surprised/embarrassed everyone judging by the cars and times listed on the two comparison charts posted by Turboswede.
Opti wrote: Ive heard and read from many sources that the 302 was actually quicker in the quarter than many of its big block brethren.
And so the hearsay continues :p
wlkelley3 wrote: Ah, the infamous one year only Chevy 302.
Was sold from 67 to 69, so definitely not "one year". And it wasn't that quick, having driven a completely restored 69, blueprinted factory DZ302 motor with the cross rams manifolds and tuned to perfection that a family friend has. Fun? Yes. Relatively fast? Yes. Glorious noises? Absolutely. But my 1994 JDM WRX with bolt ons is significantly quicker. I doubt a genuine 67-69 z28 would run faster than 13.8 on modern tires.
Yep & Yep,
I had a stripped '69 Roadrunner 440-6 pack & also a '66 451 H.O. Tri-power Catalina in the sixties. Both of which I bought new. I haven't owned a car in the last fifteen or so years that wouldn't run at least for an 8th of a mile with either of them. And I'm including my Honda Fit. Tires matter!
In fact I was known to hook a 16' runabout boat on the trailer hitch of the Roadrunner and embarrass guys at the stop light Grand Prixs. They didn't realize I had about 150 pounds of tongue weight on the back bumper and that was the only time my F-70x15 Uniroyal Tiger Paws ever hooked up!
TeamEvil wrote: Wasn't there a VW Beetle back in the late 60's/early 70's that used to kill the muscle cars at the drags. Ran in the low 12s I guess. Must have surprised/embarrassed everyone judging by the cars and times listed on the two comparison charts posted by Turboswede.
You talking about the black widow? It was powered by the turbonique drag axle and was nuts. Was wrecked and totaled. Of course they also put those axles in some muscle cars.
I have a stock 71 Chevelle 454ss. Regardless of the times it turns it's a hell of a lot of fun.
TeamEvil wrote: Wasn't there a VW Beetle back in the late 60's/early 70's that used to kill the muscle cars at the drags. Ran in the low 12s I guess. Must have surprised/embarrassed everyone judging by the cars and times listed on the two comparison charts posted by Turboswede.
You may be thinking of the EMPI Inch Pincher and Inch Pincher Too: http://jbvwt2b.skynetblogs.be/archive/2009/02/06/inch-pincher-story.html
We have lots of muscle cars here that are now coming out to tour around. It is fun to be at a stop light with them - even on modern tires (which improve the old cars' times significantly) they have problems with my daily driver Solstice GXP (it gets into the 12.9 range in the 1/4).
The one I always liked was my 88 Fiero that I turboed. Right after I put new tires on it, of a sticky compound, It almost refused to lay rubber, it just translated the power into forward motion (the mid engine helps a lot off the line). Very frustrating for old style pony cars that sit there spinning while you dematerialize in front of them!
Opti wrote: I was hoping that list included the 69 Z28 Ive heard and read from many sources that the 302 was actually quicker in the quarter than many of its big block brethren.
Supposedly a mid 12 second car... once you installed headers and good tires.
A very large number of road tests from the day involve slicks, changing the rearend gears, or doing some tuning and tweaking to the carb and ignition. The kind of stuff that the potential buyers would probably do, but that'd never fly in a modern magazine. (Well, except GRM anyway)
But GRM would give us baseline numbers first :)
Knurled wrote:Opti wrote: I was hoping that list included the 69 Z28 Ive heard and read from many sources that the 302 was actually quicker in the quarter than many of its big block brethren.Supposedly a mid 12 second car... once you installed headers and good tires. A very large number of road tests from the day involve slicks, changing the rearend gears, or doing some tuning and tweaking to the carb and ignition. The kind of stuff that the potential buyers would probably do, but that'd never fly in a modern magazine. (Well, except GRM anyway)
But GRM would give us baseline numbers first :)
Knurled wrote:Opti wrote: I was hoping that list included the 69 Z28 Ive heard and read from many sources that the 302 was actually quicker in the quarter than many of its big block brethren.Supposedly a mid 12 second car... once you installed headers and good tires. A very large number of road tests from the day involve slicks, changing the rearend gears, or doing some tuning and tweaking to the carb and ignition. The kind of stuff that the potential buyers would probably do, but that'd never fly in a modern magazine. (Well, except GRM anyway)
Vintage road test of a '69 Hemi Charger. For me, it's a toss up between the cars, and the narration...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqtbaQL8K9Y
WOW ! all that macho bravado and the scary Dragnet TV show voice and my niece's Lexus is faster ! ? ! ? ! ?
I mean, it's faster and she drinking a Latte while being faster.
Times have SO MUCH changed. Make me question every braggart that I've ever heard mouthing off about his Mopar/Goat/Vette/Whatever at a cruise night.
When did everything from the past turn into bull E36 M3?
TeamEvil wrote: WOW ! all that macho bravado and the scary Dragnet TV show voice and my niece's Lexus is faster ! ? ! ? ! ? I mean, it's faster and she drinking a Latte while being faster. Times have SO MUCH changed. Make me question every braggart that I've ever heard mouthing off about his Mopar/Goat/Vette/Whatever at a cruise night. When did everything from the past turn into bull E36 M3?
What do you mean 'past'? 99 percent of the population is full of E36 M3. Inflating performance numbers didn't begin and end in the 60s and it sure as hell isn't exclusive to muscle cars.
I know, I was being kind. Figured that if I only mentioned the past, that I wouldn't be opening the door to a big fuss . . .
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