I'm not building a challenge car but I am what you call frugal.
I am about to pull the trigger on a second microsquirt set up to install on a vw 16v engine. While I'm super satisfied with the aem wideband set ups I have run in my truck and our turbo tercel I feel like I'm paying quite a bit for the aem sticker that comes in the box.
With that in mind I found some alternate options and who better than the grm hive to have input on going fast for cheap.
These are the options I am looking at as of this morning.
1- Spartan Lambda Controller 2 by 14point7 . Pro: 125$ usd and cheap shipping because like me they are in Canada. Con : not much out there for reviews and no gauge at the 125$ price point.
2-WB D2 WIDEBAND by wideband.com Pro: 125$ usd with a gauge! Con: not in Canada so duties may be expensive also limited reviews online.
3-Zeitronix Zt-3 + ZR-3 AFR Gauge Display Bundle from EFI Source. Pro: I have used zeitronix before with good results. And they have the best looking gauge. Con : expensive on sale at 189$ usd...and shipping.
4- Another AEM from eBay. About 200$ usd plus or minus. Pros: known workhorse with a good gauge. Cons eats almost another 100$ over the budget competitors except the zietronix.
5- whatever used set up I can find before spring. Pro: cheap. Con: now that I know how delicate the sensors are I'm hesitant to buy a used one.
Really just looking for first hand experience from others who do efi on the cheap. This will be a turbo car so a wb is a must. I'd love to save 100$ on this to leave a few bucks in my personal budget for some other parts needed to complete then conversion.
Cactus
Reader
11/23/19 9:03 a.m.
I have an innovate, would not recommend.
Cactus said:
I have an innovate, would not recommend.
Second.
I was extremely happy with my LC1. I am extremely unhappy with my MTX-L-plus-C3PO-90210-eleven.
I've only ever used the Innovate, I think it's the original LM-1. It's from the early oughts. I used it to tune the Haltech in the Turbo II, and I didn't blow it up, so I wonder what the criticism is for the Innovate units? Longevity? Accuracy? What? I've never had an issue with mine.
I have heard the later model innovative units are not terribly reliable.
I've got two MTX-Ls, one is terrible and eats sensors about 1 per season, and the second I've only used for 1 season so we'll see how it holds up....
Nugi
Reader
11/23/19 4:12 p.m.
I would figure out what runs the bulletproof bosch sensors and run that. The innovative do indeed seem to be very easily fouled. Doesn't aem have a cheaper budget wideband line? I swear I picked one of mine up for about 125...
In reply to Nugi :
Innovate uses Bosch sensors. The LC1 uses the cheap and easy to find "4.2" sensor, the newer units use the much less cheap "4.9" sensor. Of course, the LC1 is discontinued.
I'd spring for a wideband that uses NTK sensors. They seem to be the most robust.
You could always use an AEM to tune it and run a cheap one at the challenge..... I'm interested to see how this goes because I'm going to need to tune my DSM too.
Nugi
Reader
11/23/19 4:36 p.m.
In reply to Knurled. :
I must have had them backwards. That sounds right.
I have used versions 14point7 products over the years and never had an issue. To me no gauge was not an issue. I use the logs to tune.
Relevant to my interests, not that I have anything to add
I have a 14point7 that so far has been fine, but "so far" is only about a month of initial attempts to get the car running and idling properly (no fault of the WBO2). I originally bought an Innovate something-something, but the pins on the controller were mangled when they arrived, such that it was not possible to plug the sensor harness into it. After seeing lots of other reliability complaints, I returned it for a refund.
My only ... observation about the Bosch 4.9 / 14point7 combo is the output seems to indicate large transients (like swinging to 19.0 AFR) when conditions like TPS position change, but honestly this is the first time I've done anything with standalone ECU, and likewise the first WBO2 I've ever fooled around with, so that could either be a) normal or b) my tune, which thus far is in no way "good".
In reply to NorseDave :
I really don't think I need a gauge, for tuning I'll have the laptop plugged in. For normal driving I'm thinking tablet dash in this car...
Someone smarter than me once told me you only look down at the gauges when you already know you've hurt something.
I have had a 14point7 on my lt1 for almost tow years and no problems.
14point7 for the cheapies. Ballenger afr500v2 w ntk sensor for the more serious. Everything else is either inconsistent quality (innovate) or expensive enough to go to the afr500.
I'm using the Summit Racing brand one. It is a repackaged AEM. It has survived 2+ years of rotary fireballs and extreme rich conditions and works great. I want to say I got it for ~$125 also.
In reply to Paul_VR6 :
Paul,
Could you expand on the difference between the Cheapie and the pro level?
Is it sensor life? Refresh time? Accuracy ? Component quality?
Nearly all of the above. Refresh rate is hard to quantify unless you have a lab grade calibration setup where you can very cal gas volume and track afr. The ntk sensor is nearly unkillable other than lead fouling. I have used the same production grade sensor and check against a lab cal one on occasion with .1afr difference at most. The controllers themselves are high quality although the display is not very fancy. The manufactuer makes some quite high quality electronics.
In reply to Paul_VR6 :
Fair enough, I figured if I'm comparing a 14point7 and an aem that both use the Bosch sensor then the difference must be in the name and the quality of the other components...just hard to know which of those two you are paying the premium for sometimes.
I see that AEM has banner ads on here sometimes. If a rep wanted to shed some more light on this I'd be interested to hear it.
As of right now I'm thinking I'll give the 14point7 a shot. I'll leave my spare zietronix that's 10 years old but I trust in there for the first few days to make sure everything looks ok.
Most controllers that use the LSU4.9 are going to be similar. Innovate seems to kill those sensors with reckless abandon, moreso than the 4.2. AEM, PLX, Zeitronix, etc are all a similar bucket and it really depends more on what features and display you want to have.
I have yet to have the Spartans let me down, they are good at the little they do.
Knurled. said:
In reply to Nugi :
Innovate uses Bosch sensors. The LC1 uses the cheap and easy to find "4.2" sensor, the newer units use the much less cheap "4.9" sensor. Of course, the LC1 is discontinued.
The newer Innovate controllers support both the 4.2 and 4.9 - it's just a matter of swapping the sensor cable and changing the settings in their configuration software.
Matt, may be worth adding that as a product config on your site... the 4.9 with those controllers is, aggravating.
