Buy American - After Bailout

No, if anything the Big 3 getting bailed out would make me less likely to buy one of their new vehicles.

A business' product is what merits its success, not how many people it employs, and as of late, there's very few new cars from ANY manufacturer that interest me at all. Those that do are usually priced out of my reach, or can't compete with what I can find in the used market.

On-topic a bit: I saw one of these today:

I really, really, really like them.

I had a V6 Fusion rental car and was really surprised by it. Probably my favorite recent rental.

P71 wrote: the Japanese have not a single suitable replacement for my P71,

hmm wonder why.

I see some of the 'merican cars on the road and think that doesn't look too bad, but when I stop in at the show room and see the cheapness of the interior and drive them and feel the gutlessness of the handling and power it turns me off.

Someone asked about the Honda's fit and finish as compared to the 'mericans and to put it in Big 3 terms, their fit, finish, drive and reliability is like getting a Caddy when you shop for a Cheby.

People here have been talking about the Solstice a lot, but on other forums the solstice gets bashed all the time due to the fail rates. And I mean in virtually every category from engine to handles & knobs, to rattles, to squeaks, to long times in the stealerships trying to get them repaired, etc., etc.

People here joke about the number of cup holders in some cars and I LIKE having lots of cup holders, except when I'm on the track, but the number of cup holders seems to be an indication of the dumbing down of the rest of the car.

As long as there are people who'll buy American no matter what or there are people with rabid brand loyalty who'll never shop anything else then the Big 3 can get away with murder. The more educated consumer is anathema to the Big 3.

Remember when the Big 3 would put a slow pulsing ABS only on the front or rear of a car so they could say they had ABS too? That's basically how they've implemented most car innovations when a few years later they say - "We've got it too!" When in fact they have implemented the lowest level they could to be able to say they have it. That's what I've come to expect from the 'merican cars and I'm seldom disappointed.

I drive about 100K a year, wear out a car every two years, I have owned around 20 town cars, crown vics and a couple of caprices, they always last up to 300K before a major repairs turns them into parts for the next one. I do all maintenance on them myself and they are simple to repair.

I tow with a E150 Chateau Van, 7000 lb rating, seats 7 and with the 351 pulls and rides just fine. My wife loves it and drives it daily as her own.

My sports cars are both RX7s, but both have American small blocks in them one 5.0 and one SBC.

I own 7 cars all RWD and small block V8s, all are reliable and I would have no issue jumping into any of them and heading to Cali.

That said, i will NEVER again buy a new car, $30K against a 10 year old 50-80K used car for $2K, no challenge in that math

Dude by the name of Delorean nailed this way back when he came up witht he GTO. He said:

"I can sell a young man's car to an old man, but I will never be able to sell an old man's car to a young man"

GM went so far as to make a car called an "Oldsmobile" for crying out loud. How many teenagers had a wet dream over that one?

Buick...who else besides me keeps an eye out for these fogey mobiles in a stream of traffic and treats them like a city bus by changing lanes not to be caught behind in the traffic flow?In my younger days "Driving a Buick" was a euphenism for tossin your cookies into the toilet after a good night on the town. That is a brand managers nightmare.

The corvette, "Americas Sprotscar!"...it is the stereotype for the male mid life crisis.

The US automakers did a great job of identifying a market in the fifties. It was a HUGE market. There was no competition. They then catered to this market while ignoring the generation that came after. Prosperity must have meant they were doing things right eh?

The emerging competition focused on the yourg and lower economic classes. Guess what, the poor and young got over it, prospered and aged and stuck with the imports who were there for them when they needed them. The imports learned the lesson comming in that new generations had to be catered to as much as the now older and afluent market.

GM has still not learned this. GM still makes great cars for old people. People who are now dying. Like GM.

So, the question is "do you believe in reincarnation?" To be honest, even a cynic like myself is having a hard time not going out to buy 20k worth of GM stock in the hope that this pig grows some wings.

To answer the original question, most likely not. I don't buy new car in general. The only time I get to drive near new cars, domestic or otherwise, is when I rent one. I do rent a lot since I travel a lot for work. I mostly rent from either Hertz or National and usually get the latest Impala, Charger, Aura, Accord or Camry when I rent full size and the Sebring when I rent mid size. A few times I got free upgrade to Escape or Equinox.

My experience with the Impala, Charger, Aura, Sebring, Escape and Equinox is that the interior fit and finish are not up to the Accord or Camry. The seats and seating position in the Impala and Equinox are just plain horrible. The steering wheel in the Aura feels cheap and flimsy. The Sebring is probably the worst car I've ever driven. I am not saying that the Accord and Camry are that great either (Accord's dashboard is too busy and Camry's dashboard look like old school Mac) but for plain vanilla car their fit and finish were so much better compared to the domestic cars. I am also comparing rental cars to rental cars so all of them are equally abused and all of them are for the most part the base model.

I did get to drive the E90 3 series when my 330Ci was in for service and I must say that if I ever buy a new car it'll probably the E90. That is if I decide that I can live with Run Flat tires and no dipstick. Can you imagine relying on a BMW sensor to tell you when your oil is low? Way to go BMW. Everyone knows that BMW engines do not burn oil and their sensors are the most reliable in the world.

I may buy a new car if its one that was designed in another country.

The Fiesta, the G8, the possible G8 Sport-Ute, or a US Made Toyota RWD Coupe.

But considering my $800 ZX2 has lasted for 3 years now without a hiccup, I still prefer the used market.

No-one seems to realise that domestic vs import shouldn't even be an issue anymore.

These are publicly traded companies, able to be bought piece-by-piece by whoever has the money.

If you want Toyota to be American, get some Americans together and buy enough shares!

It's not domestic vs import, it's crap vs quality.

I love my Toyota, I also love my Trans-Am. The quality in my 30 year old Toyota is better than the quality in my 30 year old GM product.

Shawn

aussiesmg wrote: I drive about 100K a year, wear out a car every two years, I have owned around 20 town cars, crown vics and a couple of caprices, they always last up to 300K before a major repairs turns them into parts for the next one. I do all maintenance on them myself and they are simple to repair. .......................That said, i will NEVER again buy a new car, $30K against a 10 year old 50-80K used car for $2K, no challenge in that math

I have been looking at another car and the local dealers have 2008 Ford Crown Vic LX's for $13,999.00 or best offer, and they usually have 15,000 miles on them. Both dealers I contacted admitted they were rental cars.

To get a car allowance, I have to own a newer car...

NOHOME wrote: Dude by the name of Delorean nailed this way back when he came up witht he GTO. He said: "I can sell a young man's car to an old man, but I will never be able to sell an old man's car to a young man"

To be accurate, Bunkie Knudsen (John Z.'s boss) said that when he took over Pontiac in the 1950s and turned them from a staid family car into the performance leader of the industry.

NOHOME wrote: GM went so far as to make a car called an "Oldsmobile" for crying out loud. How many teenagers had a wet dream over that one?

How about the 4-4-2, and before that the first post war high compression OHV V8. Oldsmobile had plenty of younger fans over the years.

NOHOME wrote: Buick...who else besides me keeps an eye out for these fogey mobiles in a stream of traffic

Again, in their heyday Buicks built some of the hottest cars on the street.

"The more educated consumer is anathema to the Big 3."

No, after reading most of these posts, thinking about American's financial situation, and watching the changes in the auto industry over the last 30 years, I'm going to disagree.

Americans like NASCAR, so they are ridiculed here. Americans like American Idol, so they are ridiculed here. Americans elected GWB twice, so they are ridiculed here. Americans live above their means and don't save for the future, so they are ridiculed here. But let them buy a Camry and they are suddenly berkleying Mensa candidates and "educated consumers."

The problem is not an educated consumer. The problem is:

"Guess what, the poor and young got over it, prospered and aged and stuck with the imports who were there for them when they needed them. The imports learned the lesson comming in that new generations had to be catered to as much as the now older and afluent market."

Here it is in all it's selfish glory. A sense of entitlement that requires every car, no matter what category, to be as feature laden as a top luxury car, built with the same materials as a top luxury car, and built to the same standards as a top luxury car. A standard that pushes a middle of the road family sedan to $30,000.

Yeah, the imports learned that they needed to "cater" to that entitlement mentality that has pushed Americans into overspending on McMansions and 60" plasma screens.

In a few short years we went from dashboards that were simply mounting surfaces for guages and radio to it being necessary to be liberally coated in high end soft touch materials, even in entry level cars. If it didn't look like it just came out of a new Mercedes or Lexus, it was utter crap that princesses couldn't live with (you know, the ones that could feel a pea under ten matresses).

At first I found it odd that people that had no problem living with older Japanese economy cars and British/Italian sports cars would adamantly refuse to drive newer cars that were better than what they had. The response was usually, "well, if I'm going to spend X dollars on a new car, it had better be perfect and have all these features." Well, why do you think it costs X dollars? Because we require every car to HAVE those features. Some decry the lack of basic cars in the market, especially basic light cars. But if a new car came out that was exactly that, no one would buy it, because who would spend depreciating new car money on a basic car when you can buy an older car that is already like that.

Which is another thing...

Most of us here won't buy a new car anyhow. And when we buy used cars we don't want to pay premium dollars for them. But we still demand that new cars have premium features, so that when they become used cars we can buy them cheap. So we force some unreal depreciation on new cars, and come up with all sorts of reasons to justify it. One of my faves, rental cars, and castigating American companies for selling cars to rental outlets. Rental agencies have to buy cars from somewhere. Domestic manufacturers are the smart way to go, being able to get large numbers of cheaper, basic cars that dealers don't want to sell to the general public (not enough options to make a good profit off of, and again, that sense of vanity/entitlement of the general public won't allow them to buy basic cars anyhow if an optioned up version is available). We love to say that manufacturers are failures for selling product to that market, and then devaluing the upscale, retail versions of that product because that other market exists. Hell, we make sure to steer people away from the retail versions of the cars, because our vanity and sense of entitlement won't let us drive cars that are available as "mere" rentals, regardless of how solid and well built that car may be.

Most new domestic cars have caught up in the quality department, and are vastly better than the cars, both domestic and import, that most of us have no problem living with on a daily basis right now. But that's not good enough anymore. Our vanity and sense of entitlement require that they be vastly better than the competition at the same price point in order to not be considered utter crap that couldn't be lived with. And that's the real problem that Detroit has been facing. Product is NOT the problem anymore. They could build the absolute best cars in the world right now and still even "knowledgeable" automotive fans would turn people away from them, because no one will lift a finger to help change the perception.

AMEN Chris!!!!

NOHOME wrote: GM went so far as to make a car called an "Oldsmobile" for crying out loud. How many teenagers had a wet dream over that one?

Umm, Oldsmobile was one of America's first cars back at the turn of the last century. It became part of GM early on, and its name came from its founder, Ransom E. Olds. If you're going to insult a car, better make sure you know what the hell you're talking about so you don't look like an ignorant fool. If you really believe they went out and decided to buil a car with "old" in the name to cater to old people, you're an idiot.

And the last Olds cars were probably some of the best GM cars of that era.

Buick...who else besides me keeps an eye out for these fogey mobiles in a stream of traffic and treats them like a city bus by changing lanes not to be caught behind in the traffic flow?In my younger days "Driving a Buick" was a euphenism for tossin your cookies into the toilet after a good night on the town. That is a brand managers nightmare.

In my younger days, Buick was the home of the Turbo Regal and GN. Some of the fastest street cars on the drag strip. And they were also the basis for some of the best classic custom cars at the shows and cruise-ins.

The corvette, "Americas Sprotscar!"...it is the stereotype for the male mid life crisis.

GM didn't make that stereotype. Vain young people did. They begged and pleaded for the Corvette to be a world class sports car, which meant it had to cost so much that only older people with disposable money could afford it. And the young people with disposable income wouldn't buy it BECAUSE older people with money could buy it, creating the stereotype. (that and since it was American, no matter how good it worked, young people brought up on Civics were required by their peers to stay away)

The US automakers did a great job of identifying a market in the fifties. It was a HUGE market. There was no competition. They then catered to this market while ignoring the generation that came after.

Actually, the generation that came after grew up in the '60s, during the peak of the musclecar era. And Detroit still ruled.

Where I'll agree with you was that going through the '70s, Detroit ignored the influx of Japanese cars while they were still of spotty quality, thinking that they didn't have to make an effort to match them (and hell, instead they bought up imports and sold them under their own brand names insteqad of learning how to build them themselves. They still built decent big cars in comparison, but they had no clue how to build luxury small cars)

So, when the Japanese could use cheaper labor and cheaper supplier costs to go after the emerging "luxury at all price points because we're entitled to it" consumer, Detroit was caught out.

But it's not because Detroit only builds for an old audience (even though at least some product should be targetted there). it's simply due to the modern consumner being vain and requiring way too much out of basic transportation. And this hits every manufacturer. Look at a new 3 series BMW for example, and compare it to an E30. And then ask why we don't have a fairly inexpensive, light, agile 3 series anymore. Compare a '70s Accord to a modern one and ask how this entry level economy sedan is now $30k and weighing 3600 lbs (only 200lbs less than my 429 SCJ powered '71 Ford Torino GT!)

Chris, unfortunately it's not just perception, it's reality. We used to produce the best mass produced cars in the world, but at that time there were very few cars mass produced cars. At that time Mercedes was fabulous (now not so) & Fiat et al, were cheap crap.

The Japanese changed all that. Not in one fell swoop, but by learning from their and our mistakes. It took decades but they changed and learned. During that time the Big 3 kept producing the same 'ol, same 'ol, while the rest of the automotive world changed with the Japanese. The Big 3 have changed only when they had to and as little as possible.

As far as "most of us won't buy a new car anyway" well speak for yourself. I've had 5 in the last 2 years. The Big 3 stuff sucked and I couldn't resell them without losing my shirt, but all the "foreign stuff" except for a 350z sold in a heartbeat and for top dollar.

Nissan, the GM of the foreign world, has the lowest build quality and the least innovative cars, but is still far superior to any big 3 car I've owned. The Altima coupe has a buzzy engine and doesn't handle nearly as well as other foreign car sporty offerings but it still feels more solid and planted than anything I could find in the Big 3 world at the time I bought them.

Even the Caddy Escalade falls far short of the look, feel, quality, drivability of the lowly Lexus is250. And as far as warranty and service work, well I can't compare. The Caddy was in all the time, but the Lexus has never needed to go back so I can't tell you if the Lexus warranty or service is as good or bad as the Caddy's.

The Big 3 have so much baggage associated with them I don't believe they'll ever be able to produce a world class car without a major make over such as a Bankruptcy to allow them to start with a fresh slate. The unions have stifled them. I don't blame management as they have had to try to exist with both arms tied behind their backs due to union demands, working condition, heck the union even controls car design since they have to be designed to be built certain ways so as to not inconvenience the union members.

Dude, mainstream American cars are as good as mainstreamers from anywhere in quality and reliability. And in many cases, they do so at a great price point in comparison.

And it's a fact: you may have bought 5 new cars in 2 years (which seems financially silly to me) but the truth is that most of us on this site tend to buy used cars instead of new ones on a regular.

Interesting that you bring up resale. New American cars, even with great quality and style, get saddled with poor resale DUE to perception (as well as the thing I mentioned about rentals.) not reality. As I said, the could make the best cars in every segment and resale will still be based on the perception of past performance, not the reality of what is being made now. And people like you go out of their way to make sure it stays that way. So of course the Big 3 are going to fail, because it's a foregone conclusion. Even with a bankruptcy and fresh start, people will base their buying habits on perception of past performance, not current product. Hell, most people, listening to their "enthusiast" friends, won't even LOOK at a domestic product, no matter how good it is. And that extends to a lot of areas, not just cars. People want imported this and exotic that because rich people buy imported products, and by God, we all deserve that lifestyle.

Of course, continuing on the resale conversation and luxury items, I've got a "world class" import sedan. And I would have hated to be the original owner looking at selling it after a couple years. It lost 50% of it's value in the first three years (going from $70k plus to $35k in 3 years time). My '02 PT didn't do that. I also can't comment on the dealer service for the PT, as in 5 years and 70k miles, it never needed anything but oil changes...

My wife's old Sentra was far worse for reliability and quality than any of the three new domestics I've had. So is my brother's Nissan minivan.

Yes, the Japanese did leapfrog the Americans (and Europeans) by adding more and more content for the money, then slowly pushing the price and size up to accomodate, even on the basic cars. Again see the aforementioned Accord example. They did tend to cover up problems and quietly "fix" them when the cars were in for other things (when I was a Honda service advisor, we saw a lot of that) or simply to refuse to acknowledge that there was an issue. Funny thing is, the same number and level of problems in an import is perceived different than in a domestic. THAT'S reality. A recall in an import is "proactive" and proof that the manufacturer cares about the consumer, while a similar recall in a domestic is proof that they build crap. Why is that?

I agree about the unions, however.

^ I agree with everything Chris has said.

Honduh is in the midst of some serious transmission issues. Something close to the equivalant to the Chrysler minivans. But do you hear about it? Nope. WHy? Because we're not allowed to discuss it and it's taken care of quietly so no one knows about it.

Toyoduh has had an ongoing issue with their V6's sludging anf the camry 4-banger blowing headgaskets faster than an old neon. Do we hear about that? Nope. Because Toyoduh is the "Chosen One" and does no wrong. What about the Knuckle issues that plagued the last taco's and 4-runners or the previous Tundra's transmission appetite? Nope.

GM has a recall on friggin tailgate cables snapping while people were riding (illegally) on the tailgate causing injuries and they are the demon of the universe.

REsale? Don't get me started. Wonder why people's credit sucks so bad? Rolling over negative equity every other year so they can "Keep up with the Joneses" and buying cars that they are told to buy. Buying what's chic and not what they need. Then complain because they can't afford the maintenance and gas.

Resale means squat to a person like me. We drive them into the ground, fix it, drive it some more then buy a new one (with one exception). Unfortunately that only mean 5 years for a Toyoduh Rav that my wife had. Supposedly the pillar of automotive excellence that has been outperformed by a cheapo throw away econobox from Korea. Make that TWO cheapo econoboxes from Korea.

The sheople have been doing what they are told for years and believe that the domestic automakers are inferior cars because that's what they are told. Are they really that bad? Nope. Are the sheople going to believe me? Nope.

Well, now is a good time to buy a truck. My dad just got a new V6 Silverado for less than $13k. It's a basic model, with cloth seats, crank windows, and manual locks. The quality of materials inside is far and above what I would have expected... it makes me wonder what people really think they "need" as far as quality goes.

On the Honda transmission issue: it's pretty much V6 Accords and Odysseys. Honda is fixing them without charge in the majority of cases. I also know of one incident where an '85 Accord with approx 80k miles was being driven full throttle down a dirt road with potholes and a one way sprag clutch grenaded. Honda fixed that one out of warranty, no charge to the owner ( a friend of mine).

By way of comparison:

In the aftermarket, I sold a young lady a transmission overhaul on a Sebring which had a transmission replaced under the 3/36 base warranty, it failed about 8k out of the base warranty and after the replacement parts warranty expired. The customer's request to Chrysler for out of warranty assistance was denied. At 44,000 miles, a second transmission pukes and no assistance. Who do you think she will buy a car from next? I can give you a hint: it damn sure won't be Chrysler.

Escorts used to have a bad habit of the timing belt loosening, this would lead to an intermittent stall at idle because the distributor would stop turning momentarily. Ford would NOT fix this after 12/12 because it was considered to be an adjustment, not a repair. This used to happen at really low mileages, too, like about 14-18K. Try explaining THAT one to a customer.

The domestics can complain about their perception in the marketplace. I submit that it's a perception born of the way they treated their customers during the '80's and '90's and now that's all coming home to roost.

About recalls:

I worked for a GMC dealer for a while. The recalled tailgate cables were made of inferior material (in China, no less!), water would get inside the cable end where it was crimped and the cable would corrode internally. The outer part of the cable would look OK since it had some galvanizing. Lower the tailgate and step on it (who'd a thunk ya needed to step on a tailgate or pull a heavy load across it, right Bobzilla?) and the cable would separate.

The Toyota ball joint issue on Tundras: they were made here in the States by the same manufacturer who made the Jeep Liberty pieces that were recalled for the same reason, separation. The worst part: the same company supplied Chrysler with front end parts in the 1970's and it was well known at the time that Chrysler products ate ball joints like candy.

Toyota had the Tacoma frame rust issue and they stepped right up and did something about it.

Oil gelling: EVERYONE has that problem, not just Toyota. I personally think it's something the oil companies had a problem with about the time they reformulated most oils to take the zinc (ZDDP) additives out but they have kept their mouths shut.

EDIT: I neglected to mention one of the worst cases I have seen of ill treatment of a customer and forgetting it is all the worse because it's my dad. When his knees got too old for him to get in and out of a Jag all day long, he started buying Grand Cherokees. They have pretty much all been sh!t, even he says that. Six or seven fuel pumps in one of them, then window regulators in the next one (google 99 2004 Grand Cherokee window regulator and tell me what you get) then he bought a '06. It had about 18K miles on it, he was backing out of his driveway one morning and the engine wiring harness caught fire. Sure it was fixed under warranty, but due to parts delays it wasn't going to be done for about six weeks. The Chrysler rep refused to help with rental, so Dad traded it. The rep offered some assistance on tradein if he bought another Jeep, so he did just that. Lo and behold, the help offer was withdrawn AFTER the deal was completed, so much for verbal contracts.

I rode in the replacement vehicle two weekends ago, the Check Engine light is on. Catalytic converters, 19k miles. He says he has had it; once the light is off he's trading it for a Sequoia or similar.

if we have to bail out all 3, one of them for the second time, why not merge them? get rid off the duplicate managment positions, actually all the managment clearly needs to go, look what they have done for their shareholders

I just got a personal letter from General Motors stating they want a loan and not a payout.

blah, blah, blah

You made the right choice when you put your confidence in General Motors, and we appreciate your past support.........Despite what you may be hearing, we are not asking Congress for a bailout but rather a loan that will be repaid.

The U.S. economy is at a crossroads due to the worldwide credit crisis, and all Americans are feeling the effects of the worst economic downturn in 75 years. Despite our successful efforts to restructure, reduce costs and enhance liquidity, U.S. auto sales rely on access to credit, which is all but frozen through traditional channels.

The consequences of the domestic auto industry collapsing would far exceed the $25 billion loan needed to bridge the current crisis. According to a recent study by the Center for Automotive Research:

• One in 10 American jobs depends on U.S. automakers • Nearly 3 million jobs are at immediate risk • U.S. personal income could be reduced by $150 billion • The tax revenue lost over 3 years would be more than $156 billion

Discussions are now underway in Washington, D.C., concerning loans to support U.S. carmakers. I am asking for your support in this vital effort by contacting your state representatives.

Let me assure you that General Motors has made dramatic improvements over the last 10 years. In fact, we are leading the industry with award-winning vehicles like the Chevrolet Malibu, Cadillac CTS, Buick Enclave, Pontiac G8, GMC Acadia, Chevy Tahoe Hybrid, Saturn AURA and more. We offer 18 models with an EPA estimated 30 MPG highway or better — more than Toyota or Honda. GM has 6 hybrids in market and 3 more by mid-2009. GM has closed the quality gap with the imports, and today we are putting our best quality vehicles on the road.

Please share this information with friends and family using the link on the site.

Thank you for helping keep our economy viable.

Sincerely,

Troy Clarke

It goes farther than Accords and Odyssey's. Right now the years in question are 99-06.

Bobzilla wrote: It goes farther than Accords and Odyssey's. Right now the years in question are 99-06.

Check even farther. It's pretty much all the V6's going back to the mid '90's. 4 cylinders have almost no tranny failures uner 175K miles.

It also appears the Ridgeline hasn't been experiencing the same rate of failure. Maybe a different tranny setup?

This is an interesting read (even if it is the NYT) on the English car industry: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/18/business/economy/18car.html?_r=2&oref=slogin trying to draw comparisons with the US bailout. They are concluding that the English, faced with similar issues to the Big 3, just threw money at BL and hoped for the best and are suggesting that some money and some guidance/top level management changes would work out better. We'll see.

MB used to have really good quality. Then they merged with Chrysler and the new company had quality that was a weighted average of the the both of them. I don't know if MB has recovered yet or not.