Buy American - After Bailout

Tell you what, if the Crossfire is any indication then M-B has some quality issues of their own.

I learned a while back that some Mercedes automatic trannys will 'wick' tranny fluid up through the wiring harness, uphill right under the dash and into the transmission control unit. There is a tech bulletin outlining the repair procedure which involves replacement of both the harness and module, it is covered only under the base vehicle warranty. Once out of warranty, the repair is around $1800.00.

Mercedes does not consider this worthy of a recall.

A lot have made my point. The foreign cars step up to the plate when there's an issue much more often and more fully than any of the big 3 do. That's better service and that's a better warranty. I had a top issue in my Honda that was well beyond warranty period but Honda fixed it for free because they saw it as a design defect and their problem rather than anything I'd done. Try to get that from the Big 3

Chris V if the resale on american cars get beat up on resale that's reality not perception. It doesn't matter what fuels the big drop in value the fact of the matter is that they have a bigger and quicker drop in value PERIOD. In this case perception is reality.

Ohh and check out the "bailouts" I think you'll find not a one has been a bailout - they've all been loans. We, the people, stand to make a lot of money on these loans while the govt is bolstering the present day economy.

NOHOME wrote: GM went so far as to make a car called an "Oldsmobile" for crying out loud. How many teenagers had a wet dream over that one? How about the 4-4-2, and before that the first post war high compression OHV V8. Oldsmobile had plenty of younger fans over the years.

KEY word in the sentence is HAD. For Chris: I made no reference as to why the car was called Oldsmobile, only that it was and that Gm sold it. At one time in our history, being old was not a crime. In todays world it is. I did not make it so, the media did. Go call them names. I also had the pleasure of living in a Spanish speaking country when the NOVA was introduced; another very poor choice of names and market research failure! Selling a car called "oldsmobile" into a youth market and car with the name "Does not Go" into a spanish market...that was foolish.

NOHOME wrote: Buick...who else besides me keeps an eye out for these fogey mobiles in a stream of traffic Again, in their heyday Buicks built some of the hottest cars on the street.

There is that re-living of the glory days rather than facing the future: "In their heyday". Ever been in the room when the old highschool teams gather to talk about "Heydays"?

The corvette, "Americas Sprotscar!"...it is the stereotype for the male mid life crisis. GM didn't make that stereotype. Vain young people did

Vain young people. Sorry, but if not to young people who is GM going to sell cars. Why should GM not want to sell cars to vain young people? Something wrong with their money? The point is that they CAN NOT sell cars to the market that exist today.

I have no interest in what GM has done in the past. I want to know what they are going to do in the future to reconnect with the population that is not buying their cars. If it is a perception issue only, how are they going to fix the perception?

I note that all those that spout the greatness of GM vehicles limit themselves to the past tense and to past makes and models. That in itself is telling.

[quote]I note that all those that spout the greatness of GM vehicles limit themselves to the past tense and to past makes and models. That in itself is telling. [/quote]

I've seen many examples in this thread noting that GM has and is building good quality vehicles that match anything the "imports" have. I myself one of them. I agree the past is not going to help them. So why bring up Olds when it is no longer a current vehicle? Obviouisly GM realized that living in the past of olds and going by brand alone was not going to help their bloated product line.

As for the "young Market". . . what more could they ask for than a compact turbo-4 with a good suspension, fantastic brakes, LSD and inexpensive? What more do you want? Free? Not gonna happen.

NOHOME wrote: I note that all those that spout the greatness of GM vehicles limit themselves to the past tense and to past makes and models. That in itself is telling.

Wrong. I've mentioned at least once in this thread we bought a new Solstice GXP 2 years ago. We looked at other cars, including German and Japanese, and chose the Solstice.

JD Power Quality ratings are as follows:

~ Toyota: 4 balls

~ Honda: 3 balls

~ Ford: 3 balls

~ Chevrolet: 3 balls

~ Nissan: 3 balls

~ Chrysler: 2 balls

JD Power Quality Ratings

Chevy: Cobalt SS Turbo, Malibu, Malibu Hybrid, Corvette, Z51, Z06, ZR1, Trailblazer SS

Pontiac: Solstice, Solstice GXP Turbo, G8, G8 GT, G6 GXP (plus folding hardtop)

Saturn: Astra, Sky, Sky Red Line Turbo, Aura

How are these not great cars? Oh yeah, cause they say "GM" on them... You're out of your head if you honestly think any of these don't have shot. Most are leaders in their class!

carguy123 wrote: Chris V if the resale on american cars get beat up on resale that's reality not perception. It doesn't matter what fuels the big drop in value the fact of the matter is that they have a bigger and quicker drop in value PERIOD. In this case perception is reality.

My BMW had a much larger, faster depreciation hit than my PT Cruiser. Stuff your perception. The fact is, resale on a NEW model has zero to do with how good the product is, proving that making good product now (like they have for the last few years) doesn't matter, and it's not the product that's the problem, but the ignorance of the public.

NOHOME wrote: NOHOME wrote: GM went so far as to make a car called an "Oldsmobile" for crying out loud. How many teenagers had a wet dream over that one? For Chris: I made no reference as to why the car was called Oldsmobile, only that it was and that Gm sold it. At one time in our history, being old was not a crime. In todays world it is.

Your point is that they made a car with the letters old in it, thius they were stupid. the letters represented the mans name, idiot, and it was one of the first american cars period. hyad zero to do with it being old or marketed to old people.

I also had the pleasure of living in a Spanish speaking country when the NOVA was introduced; another very poor choice of names and market research failure! Selling a car called "oldsmobile" into a youth market and car with the name "Does not Go" into a spanish market...that was foolish.

Ummm Snopes says false on that one.

http://www.snopes.com/business/misxlate/nova.asp

"The original Chevrolet Nova (initially the Chevy II) hit the U.S. market in 1962. (This car should not be confused with the smaller, front wheel drive vehicle which was produced in 1985 as a joint venture between General Motors and Toyota and also assigned the Nova name.) Between 1972 and 1978 the Chevrolet Nova was also sold in Mexico and several other Spanish-speaking countries, primarily Venezuela. Shortly afterwards the great "Nova" legend arose, a legend which a little linguistic analysis shows it to be improbable: First of all, the phrase "no va" (literally "doesn't go") and the word "nova" are distinct entities with different pronunciations in Spanish: the former is two words and is pronounced with the accent on the second word; the latter is one word with the accent on the first syllable. Assuming that Spanish speakers would naturally see the word "nova" as equivalent to the phrase "no va" and think "Hey, this car doesn't go!" is akin to assuming that English speakers woud spurn a dinette set sold under the name Notable because nobody wants a dinette set that doesn't include a table.

Although "no va" can be literally translated as "no go," it would be a curious locution for a speaker of Spanish to use in reference to a car. Just as an English speaker would describe a broken-down car by saying that it "doesn't run" rather than it "doesn't go," so a Spanish speaker would refer to a malfunctioning automobile by saying "no marcha" or "no funciona" or "no camina" rather than "no va."

Pemex (the Mexican government-owned oil monopoly) sold (and still sells) gasoline in Mexico under the name "Nova." If Mexicans were going to associate anything with the Chevrolet Nova based on its name, it would probably be this gasoline. In any case, if Mexicans had no compunctions about filling the tanks of their cars with a type of gasoline whose name advertised that it "didn't go," why would they reject a similarly-named automobile?

This legend assumes that a handful of General Motors executives launched a car into a foreign market and remained in blissful ignorance about a possible adverse translation of its name. Even if nobody in Detroit knew enough rudimentary Spanish to notice the coincidence, the Nova could not have been brought to market in Mexico and/or South America without the involvement of numerous Spanish speakers engaged to translate user manuals, prepare advertising and promotional materials, communicate with the network of Chevrolet dealers in the target countries, etc. In fact, GM was aware of the translation and opted to retain the model name "Nova" in Spanish-speaking markets anyway, because they (correctly) felt the matter to be unimportant. "

Sorry, but I'm going to just assume you're ignorant, yourself.

After talking cars with car people and non car people for all my life, i have com to the conclusion that perception lags 12 to 15 years behind reality when it comes to bulid quality and related issues. Most people's perception of a particular brand or car company is formed by the whole customer experience from how they are treated when they come to the dealer and how problems are dealt with.

There is more to it than just the car itself. I know a repair techincian who started with Honda. He told me he repaired a lot of things under warrentee that they could have refused because of abuse and such. Honda authorized it anyway to retain customer loyalty. I met another tech who worked a Ford dealer who talked about how frustrating it was to work on new models because often they couldn't get parts. He told me at one point Ford changed the type of key they were using and it months after new cars were in the showroom to to get key blanks. A lot has to be coordinated.

I have driven new vehicles from Ford, GM, and Chrysler in the past two years and been pleasently surprized by the cars themselves. I don't know what the dealer or the rest of the customer experience is like by now.

Chris:

Not sure why you are so angry, unless its just my perception.

One of us speaks spanish and I believe it is not you. One of us lived in South America until 1973 and I dont think it was you. One of us is rude and I know it ain't me.

I do not care if it is a misuse of a word or a person's name, the consumer is going to play games with your brand name and they usually are not kind. It is called a sense of humour. Lots of people have one. Good brand managers are paid to be aware of and anticipate these contingencies. GM did not manage their brands very well and is now playing catch-up. I see no reason why someone should be so upset about this opinion.

The question in front of us is whether the bailout is going to bring buyers to the domestic manufacturers? My experience is that people will stay where they are happy. Making a better product will not hurt, but if people are happy with where they are, they will not be motivated to go back to a company that either drove them away or with whom they have no experience.

Chris_V wrote: Sorry, but I'm going to just assume you're ignorant, yourself.

no. I'm ignorant.

Type Q wrote: After talking cars with car people and non car people for all my life, i have com to the conclusion that perception lags 12 to 15 years behind reality when it comes to bulid quality and related issues. Most people's perception of a particular brand or car company is formed by the whole customer experience from how they are treated when they come to the dealer and how problems are dealt with. There is more to it than just the car itself. I know a repair techincian who started with Honda. He told me he repaired a lot of things under warrentee that they could have refused because of abuse and such. Honda authorized it anyway to retain customer loyalty. I met another tech who worked a Ford dealer who talked about how frustrating it was to work on new models because often they couldn't get parts. He told me at one point Ford changed the type of key they were using and it months after new cars were in the showroom to to get key blanks. A lot has to be coordinated. I have driven new vehicles from Ford, GM, and Chrysler in the past two years and been pleasently surprized by the cars themselves. I don't know what the dealer or the rest of the customer experience is like by now.

i've heard that in some cases, to repair new models, ford has to actually pull a part from the assembly line because they haven't yet built up an inventory of unique spares for the car.

NOHOME wrote: Chris: Not sure why you are so angry, unless its just my perception. One of us speaks spanish and I believe it is not you. One of us lived in South America until 1973 and I dont think it was you. One of us is rude and I know it ain't me.

You come in here making ridiculous insults and showing you know very little about the car industry, and complain when someone else gets "rude?" Ok. You can speak spanish all day long. The facts, looked up by people that know better, show your repeating of an old myth to be just repeating an old myth. Nova, as one word, does not mean doesn't go. It's a myth that was dispelled by knowledgeable people other than myself years ago. And that's a fact.

http://spanish.about.com/cs/culture/a/chevy_nova.htm

"Even if you couldn't confirm or reject the story by looking into history, you might notice some problems with it if you understand Spanish better than those who spread the story. For starters, nova and no va don't sound alike and are unlikely to be confused, just as "carpet" and "car pet" are unlikely to be confused in English. Additionally, no va would be an awkward way in Spanish to describe a nonfunctioning car (no funciona, among others, would do better), just as in English we'd be more likely to say "it doesn't run" than "it doesn't go."

Additionally, as in English, nova when used in a brand name can convey the sense of newness. There's even a Mexican gasoline that goes by that brand name, so it seems unlikely such a name alone could doom a car.

A logical analysis of the story would also indicate its unlikelihood: It strains credibility to believe that a company as large as General Motors, with marketing executives and other employees and contacts throughout the world, wouldn't be aware of a negative meaning of a product name. In fact, according to one marketing analyst (Cecelia Bouleau, quoted in Business Mexico magazine), GM marketers discussed the possibility of confusion with the name, but "they kept the name and it sold very well. ... I think that the word is sufficiently incorporated into the language as meaning 'new' — as in 'bossa nova' — that the criticism isn't valid." "

I do not care if it is a misuse of a word or a person's name, the consumer is going to play games with your brand name and they usually are not kind. It is called a sense of humour. Lots of people have one. Good brand managers are paid to be aware of and anticipate these contingencies. GM did not manage their brands very well and is now playing catch-up. I see no reason why someone should be so upset about this opinion.

You were calling them stupid for having the name. It was one of the first cars ever, named after someone, and had along history. Insulting the car because of THAT particular gem is stupid. And I HATE stupid, especially on a car board. OTHER people didn't insult GM for naming a car Oldsmobile in this thread, YOU did. And since GM didn't NAME the car, your objection to the name is ridiculous. You don't want it pointed out, then think before you type. And that's MY opinion, which, if you're entitled to state yours, then I'm ALSO entitled to state MINE.

There's a lot of things GM has done wrong over the years. Neither of the two things YOU brought up are among them.

The question in front of us is whether the bailout is going to bring buyers to the domestic manufacturers? My experience is that people will stay where they are happy. Making a better product will not hurt, but if people are happy with where they are, they will not be motivated to go back to a company that either drove them away or with whom they have no experience.

And my point is that admitting it's buyer ignorance or indifference proves that GM could make the best product on the planet and it won't matter. It's not about product anymore. It's all about people like you supporting people being ignorant, and saying, in effect, we can't change perception, even though we're the knowledgeable people that others look to in their buying decisions, so we'll just reinforce the perception by repeating old myths and making things up to insult the manufacturers about.

P71 wrote: Solstice Astra How are these not great cars?

Those are the only two I would consider buying new (dictated by my needs and income).

The Solstice is up against the Miata, which had almost a 20 year head start and is widely regarded as an affordable, reliable, fun car. What does the Solstice offer that the Miata does not? (assume non-compeition, second car use). I own a Miata (bought before the Solstice was released), it's been great, I have no reason not to buy another. And it has to compete with CPO BMW sports-cars (which is the route my father chose).

The Astra looks good. On paper it compares well against the Mazda3 and costs a little bit less fully-loaded. But, it's still a hair over $20,000 and for that money, it better not have any flaws in fit, finish or ergonomics, or I'll just buy the Mazda3 (or a CPO Volvo V50).

Not long after buying a BMW M Coupe in 1999, someone in a Home Depot parking lot made some comments about buying such an un-American piece of crap when Detroit made so many good, cheaper cars. After I stopped laughing, I pointed out that the M Coupe was made in South Carolina with 30% US part content, and asked if he knew where the parts in his Ford Contour came from. The debate pretty much ended after that.

I'd buy American (probably Ford) if they made anything that I'd consider driving. But with a 2004 Miata, I probably won't be buying another car for 10 years or more.

Just checking in. Everyone behaving on this thread and playing nicely? Good.

Yeah, I think I am straightened out now. I apologize and stand corrected for the following:

GM has brillant brand management.

There is no linguistic play on words that could misconstrue Nova to No va because the accent is wrong.

Domestic cars have always been and continue to be, world class value.

The only reason people won't buy domestic is because they are vain, and stupid people like me tell them not to. I can prove that I am stupid because I own MGs and Bugeyes. (Is it just me or is it ironic that MG is GM spelled backwards?) Mea Culpa.

If the US government will give ME just 1 Billion dollars, I promise to stop making fun of US auto history and this whole mess will all go away! I promise to invest half the billion in GM stocks which are going to shoot up cause I will be quiet.

Cotton wrote:

Twin_Cam wrote: I drive an American car (actually conceived, designed, manufactured, and assembled here), but I refuse to buy a new Saturn, because they're not Saturns anymore, they're GM junk. So when this S-series dies, I'll either find a less-used one, or buy an import. It's a shame that these companies employ SO many people, because otherwise, I'd say let them burn. The Big 3 haven't manufactured anything remotely interesting since the 70s, and only a select few vehicles even worth a damn, reliability-wise. But typical American corporate thinking, just keep doing what we're doing, screw the future, big cars will always rule. Maybe if they had been working on decent cars and new technology rather than trucks, SUVs, and vehicles that get single-digit fuel economy they wouldn't be so screwed right now...

You're on a motorsports forum and don't think anything remotely interesting has come out of the big 3 since the 70s? What the hell do you find interesting?

that thought did cross my mind also....

after cruising the thread - wow.....glad no one has any bias.....

So who is going to run with my GM "crappy build" car at Road Atlanta in a few weeks?