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dankimber
dankimber Reader
12/19/15 11:08 a.m.

Some of this has probably been asked before, but a quick search of the forums didnt yield much.

I am thinking about getting a C4, manual, LT1 engine car and looking for information from someone with more knowledge than me!!

Is there anything from those years that stands out for a track day / autocross / daily driver car??

Multiple google searches have been telling me the Z51 suspension didnt come in the LT1 flavor until 1996...is that correct..and that the Z07 was the performance suspension package? Was this close to the Z51 package?

Also looks like a manual only came with a 3.45:1 rear end, and no performance axle ratio option...is that correct?

Other than the suspension and axle codes are there any other preferable ones.

I dont think it will be competitive but for autocross I was figuring STU based on worn out bushings, shocks and other bits that will be expensive or unavailable from the OE.

Thanks, Dan

Raze
Raze UltraDork
12/19/15 11:26 a.m.

I bought an auto LT1 basket case...I'm learning all about them too...start here: Vorshlag C4 Build

vwcorvette
vwcorvette Dork
12/19/15 9:02 p.m.

Wheel bearings are a common replacement if used often for track events.

daytonaer
daytonaer HalfDork
12/19/15 9:45 p.m.

Mtx rear is a dana44 with clutch lsd, shares parts with viper d44, so 're-gear is available: but torquey motor, so you may not need.6th gear is .5 od ratio, stock rear is great for highway!

Aftermarket is strong for suspension bits and bushings, might not be worth buying specific package likely worn out unless regulated by classing.

Monster flywheel is nla, AL flywheel is awesome but will 're-class you almost anywhere. Stock has rubber bushings that can fail.

17" performance tire in wide sizes (275 or so) market shrinking, but if not limited by classing new 'vette wheels are easy button.

Mr_Clutch42
Mr_Clutch42 SuperDork
12/20/15 8:43 a.m.

In reply to dankimber: For autocross, it is outmatched by the regular C5 since they share a few classes, if you're thinking about competing at Nationals. Locally, you can be very competitive with it. It's a good track day car, good suspension geometry, good chassis, low weight, low center of gravity, relatively high hp and tq, especially if you're starting out. I forgot to ask one of my autocross buddies how reliable his C4 is. His is a late model one, probably a LT1. The unreliable and expensive components are the electronics and the Corvette specific parts, from what I've read online. I do get a sense that they're more reliable than my 98 BMW 328i, for a reference point. You already know this, but since it's the flagship American sports car, they are still priced too high on the market, IMO. I was looking into getting one for an autocross/track day car, but I will probably stick with my E36 for now. The 89 Corvette Z51 suspension package was the stiffest suspension Chevy put in the C4, along with it being a little lighter than the LT1 cars, making it the one to have for a stock autocross car. However, you should be able to get the leaf springs custom built or modified to the 89 spring rate if you need a factory rate for classing. I think that they all had Bilstein sport shocks from the factory and you rebuild those instead of purchasing new ones.

patgizz
patgizz PowerDork
12/20/15 8:52 a.m.

the cheap SOB that my dad bought my 91 from way back in 95 changed out the bilsteins for cheap monroe shocks and kept the yellow ones for himself :(

correct me if i'm wrong, but it was the 84 Z51 that had the stiffest suspension? i'm slipping on my C4 knowledge as of late, i have not touched my car for a while, plates expired in 2010 as i've been keeping it around to turn into more of a track car than street car since i can't take both kids anywhere with it.

Knurled
Knurled MegaDork
12/20/15 9:00 a.m.

The '84 had the stiffest suspension, yes.

On the other hand, the newer C4s had revised geometry and stiffer chassis, so the suspension itself could be softer because it could be allowed to work.

Mr_Clutch42
Mr_Clutch42 SuperDork
12/20/15 12:25 p.m.

I'm not an expert, but I did read that they softened up the suspension for a better ride in some of the years.

Adrift
Adrift Reader
12/20/15 1:01 p.m.

My brother and I have a 94 LT1 6spd we bought as a fun, cheap enough to walk away from if you ball it up HPDE car. We didn't have to worry about classing so we did a few things as time and money allowed. We haven't done an event in about 5 years so I'm going from memory which is dangerous. At least back then there was a pretty good aftermarket for them.

The car had a broken rear leaf spring when we bought it so we bought an aftermarket replacement for which there were a lot of rate options. We installed new yellow Konis, poly bushings, set of used Z07 bars, and C5 front brakes. We were able to get more front camber by shaving the spacers. Never touched the motor. Initially we had issues at the track with boiling PS fluid which was corrected by a rebuild of the PS pump to reduce flow. Apparently the stock one isn't built for prolonged high rpm use.

Other than the PS fluid issue, which is corrected, our car has been dead reliable at track days. We were at a private event at Beaver Run one day. My brother and I share the car so it ran 40 minutes of every hour for 5-6 hours and we never turned a wrench. It was amazing. The car more than holds it own in the lower classes of HPDE. We, and the car at only 300HP , would be outclassed at the higher levels. Our home track is Mid Ohio and it was blast there. Maybe this year...

Only autox once as a shake down event so i can't comment on it's abilities there.

Adrift
Adrift Reader
12/20/15 1:15 p.m.

PS: I just checked my notes and according to the interwebz in 2005 (wow that long ago?) The 84 (base and Z51?) had the stiffest rear by a lot but the 88-91 had the stiffest front although only slightly stiffer than the 84 Z51.

GTXVette
GTXVette Reader
12/20/15 4:22 p.m.

If I did it over....... I would have started with a manual trans if only to get the dana 44 rear. you can get any thing you can need for c4 at the Store, it seems, and going any farther than that and your building a racecar.Hopefully Mine will be Completly Out Of Control,but that's a personal choice!

dankimber
dankimber Reader
12/20/15 7:25 p.m.

Some commented, but yes, looking for high torque rear wheel drive, low cost/performance ratio car. Mostly autocross, but this nut behind the wheel isn't national caliber!!

Some track days, corvette club social events and such. For the money this seems the way to go. There is a 1995 LT1 for sale in the area for a reasonable price.

Having dealt with the LT1 in the "White trash camaro" challenge build they seem solid, but also seem to have a bad rap for the opti. However changing it out wasnt a major PITA, just took some time.

Dan

conesare2seconds
conesare2seconds HalfDork
12/20/15 8:36 p.m.

I've put up quite a bit of C4 info over the years and won't rehash all of it here, but if you can find one, Z07 is the way to go for the years you are looking for (92-95). If you find a clean base-suspension car and go that route, upgrades are easy: you really don't have to upgrade the springs unless you really want to, and aftermarket Z07/Z51-spec swaybars are easy to source and not too spendy. The one PITA I would really recommend for a base-suspension car is the Z51/Z07 steering rack. It is faster and really cuts down on steering inputs, especially in auto-x where you have a lot more turns over the distance traveled than on a road course. The rack can be changed with the engine in the car, just be prepared to futz with the very small center mounting bracket bolt - there is limited access and limited wrench travel, so it will take a lot of very small turns.

What others have said about Z51 in 84-90 cars is correct; 84 is the stiffest overall but 89 without FX3 is generally held to be the best overall package, but it's really picky to get too immersed in the nuances and we aren't really talking about L98 cars anyway.

Please know that Z07 has FX3, which is Bilstein 3-way adjustable shocks. They can be re-valved (ask for Morocco valving), though that service isn't the bargain it used to be, because the price has gone up. There is some good news these days for FX3 cars: this guy rebuilds the actuators, which are NLA from GM. The failure points are the small pot-metal gear on the shock top and the plastic gears in the actuator. You can just put regular old Z51-spec Bilsteins or Bilstein Sports on if you aren't ready to dive into FX3 repair. The front actuators disconnect from the harness very close to the shock. On the rears, you can unplug them easily, but tie a small string around the connector before you tuck the female end back up into the frame, and run the string out the upper shock mount to avoid having the connector slide back into the frame where it could be hard to fish out later. I can post more info if you get a Z07 that is showing a Service Ride Control indicator.

One other thing about Z07 - it always came with J55 11" brakes, while base cars only got 10" until 95 and 96. For autocross, just put on a good pad. You won't lack for brakes even with the smaller package.

Also, All Z07s, Z51s and 92s had a square tire and wheel setup: 9.5x11 and 275/40/17 on all corners. If I was upgrading a base 93-96 car for autox I'd buy two more 9.5 wheels and run square because you can rotate your tires to even out wear and because it might save a buck or 2 on tires. From 93-96 base suspension cars got 8.5 fronts with 255/45/17s and 9.5 rears with 285/35/17s.

I won't argue too much here about C4 vs C5 on an autocross course except to say the base C5 has the same problem as the 93-96 base C4, namely that it needs more front tire. All things being equal, a well-prepared C4 will keep up with most C5s except the Z06 on an autocross course. Donny Parks with Corvette Atlanta ran at the top of the street class in NCCC for many years in an 89 Z51. It took an equally skilled C5Z jock to beat him.

Also, 1996 is the exception to the suspension info above. In 1996, Z07 disappeared and the performance suspension was again Z51. In 96 Z51 lost the FX3s and the springs went way soft (see Hib Halvorson's suspension chart for details - 96 Z51 springs were only about as stiff as the 95 base springs), but really, 96 transfers weight nicely and isn't an uncompetitive car on the autox course. In 92-95, Z07 could be had with either auto or manual transmission. The 96 Z51 wasn't limited to manual, but I really doubt any LT1 cars came with Z51. Why? All 96 manuals are LT4, so LT1 is auto-only. I doubt Chevrolet built any Z51 LT1 automatics in 96, and while you never know, it's a fair bet they were pretty much all LT4s.

As far as rear axles go, manuals all got Dana 44s, automatics all got Dana 36. Axle ratios vary a little by year IIRC, but pretty much the base D36 ratio was 2.59 and the D36 performance ratio was 3.05. All D44s got 3.30-3.45, so the manual trans got a performance ratio by default. As a side note, the D36 ratio can be changed, or a D44 can be transplanted into an automatic. Both rear ends are very adequate for street tires. If you run sticky tires, try to launch a little softer instead of doing your Don Garlits impression; the rear will last almost forever if you are gentle but if you're a guy who runs 12" rears with stickies and launches hard every time, season after season, the day will come when you break a case.

I'd avoid any 96 with F45 real-time damping. It works okay but the shocks are terribly expensive and the car is really soft for autox.

On 92-94s, use some RTV to mass-dampen the upper power steering line right at the gooseneck on the pump. It will keep the line from cracking there with sustained high-rpm use.

Storz
Storz Dork
12/21/15 6:02 a.m.

Not much to add other than out of 27 cars owned my C4 was one of the few I regret selling. Love those cars. Yes the C5+ is better, but the C4 still has just enough "rawness" to it to be very entertaining. My dad owned #32 in 1996, it was the actual car they used for the brochure that year. LT4 6spd

Robbie
Robbie SuperDork
12/21/15 8:27 a.m.

In reply to conesare2seconds:

Uhhh, c4 information to the MAX! That is bookmarkable.

midniteson
midniteson Reader
1/20/16 4:24 a.m.

In reply to conesare2seconds:

Please Hit us with your L98 Knowledge.

This thread has the most C4 information i have found searching the forum.

I Recently picked up a Running basket case 1988 Auto Z52 spec car.

I plan to turn my vette into a super low

budget track day car that i can drive to and from the track.

Apexcarver
Apexcarver PowerDork
1/20/16 8:08 a.m.

Add in another information request, I have a friend who just bought a $1600 basket case C4 who was asking me for information, I can't remember the year, but "tune port" and 4+3 trans were the major attributes.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim UltimaDork
1/20/16 10:02 a.m.

4+3 would make it somewhere between 84 and 88, they went to the six speed in 89.

penultimeta
penultimeta Reader
1/20/16 10:25 a.m.

TPI and 4+3 puts it in the '85-'88 range. '84 got the crossfire (ceasefire?) injection and '89-91 had the ZF 6-speed and TPI. Another thing to consider is that lots of people swap out the rear transverse leaf springs for coilover. There are relatively few kits out there and what's available is expensive, but supposedly QA1 will sell you all the parts to make your own for a little over $1K. Also, I heard that the general public considered the '84 "too stiff" so chevy softened the suspension starting in '85 on the base vette and repurposed the '84 suspension into the z51 package.

conesare2seconds
conesare2seconds HalfDork
1/20/16 7:43 p.m.

Sure. L98 was introduced in 85. Lore has it that the L98 TPI setup was developed for use in passenger trucks. Dunno if that's true, but they sure make teh torques. All 85 and most 86 L98s were flat-tappet hydraulic cam engines. These mills are easily identified by their perimeter bolt arrangement on the rocker covers. The late-86 introduction of a hydraulic roller cam (look for center-bolt rocker covers) freed up some hp and improved fuel economy. How much varies by model year and equipment, but here are the general numbers: 1985/230hp, 1986 230-235 hp, 1987/240hp, 1988-91/240-245hp.

You probably know the L98 runs out of breath at relatively low rpm. Plan to shift at 4500 max on the stock setup. Torque is abundant. The best track or autox strategy for the L98 is to drive it as a momentum car. Also consider adding a harness bar and harnesses. The factory sport seats are very good (base seats are meh at best) but a harness will keep you planted and able to fully exploit all the grip the chassis can summon, which can be a bunch. Harness bars are removable, which is handy, but some designs permit the bar to rotate, not a good thing for safety. The easy button for 6-point belts is the Brey-Krause anchor kit for your forward belts. If you prefer, Autopower, AS&M and others offer bolt-in or weld-in rear "cages". These have the additional advantage of stiffening the chassis. [Fun fact: the C4 was originally designed as a t-top car. The chassis engineers hit their stiffness goal, even with the tops removed. At a very late stage of development, then-Chevy honcho Lloyd Reuss decreed a fully-removable top. Although additional structure was added to the firewall area (look around the master cylinder and hood latch areas, for example) the targa top sacrificed a ton of stiffness, to infamous effect. Not particularly stiff even with the top in, a C4 with the top removed is only one order of magnitude improved over a proverbial wet noodle. Luckily, it nonetheless handles great, but keep the top in place when you race.]

ABS was introduced as standard equipment for all 1986 Corvettes. For this reason alone a 86 is preferable to an 85, other things being equal.

An important change for 88 was front suspension geometry changed to zero scrub radius. While 16" wheels were technically still standard on base-suspension 88s, relatively few were built. All 88 Z51 and Z52 cars got 17s, and 17s became standard for all cars in 89. The 84-87 suspension shouldn't be entirely disregarded, as it has some theoretical advantages in autocross, but it's important to consider that performance tires for the 16' wheels are extinct and later 17s aren't a direct-fit upgrade because of offset changes: put later 17s on and they tuck under the car, requiring either the use of spacers or very specific wheels that are not common any longer.

Because of these changes and various other upgrades, conventional wisdom is the best L98 buy is any non-base suspension, 88 or newer car. However, manual transmission options shouldn't be overlooked when deciding between an 88 or an 89-91. The 84-88 Doug Nash 4+3 transmission was a Borg-Warner Super T-10 with an electric OD added. OD is available in 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears. This transmission has a terrible rep, and the most fair accounting of it is probably to say the verdict is mixed. The T-10 portion is what you'd expect in terms of reliability; it's very stout. Throws are long but can be shortened with an inexpensive kit, though effort is raised a little. The OD unit needs fluid and filter changes the same as an automatic. For cars with lots of engine it is vital to disengage the OD before you mat the pedal. You can also reduce driveline shock and promote longevity by clutching OD engagements and disengagements.

The problem remains that the OD was added as a CAFE measure and even with it de-selected the car wants to drop into OD for you of its own accord. At one time there was a racer who did a mod to make the OD exclusively driver-controlled and I knew a few NCCC guys back in the day who did it and ran their cars hard with no subsequent problems, but I no longer know whether he is active or if the mod procedure was ever made available to the public at large. Back in the day, an OD rebuild or replacement was very expensive and contributed to the transmission's bad rep, but the good news is twofold. First, the trans works fine without OD, other than the rev penalty. You wouldn't want to drive far on the highway without it, but around town or for track use you wouldn't miss it. Second, there is a rebuild kit for the OD unit, so if you like a project you can fix your own for a few hundred bucks. Failing all else, Eckler's and probably the other big Corvette part+accessory houses will sell you a rebuilt unit on an exchange basis.

The ZF-sourced 6-speed manual trans arrived in 1989. Physically, it's bigger than the 4+3 and is not a drop-in replacement. At a minimum, the tunnel has to be cut and the shifter cutout moved, I think the driveshaft has to be swapped, plus there are probably other snags I don't recall at the moment. The ZF comes in two flavors: a "black tag" unit from 89-93 and a "blue-tag" unit from 94-96. The earlier trans has straight-cut gears and is reputed to be stronger. The downside is gear noise, most noticeably in the lower gears. If you are new to the experience, don't worry the trans is on its way out based only on the sounds it makes. In a stock-exhaust car, with the windows up and radio off, gear whine is the loudest noise in the car in first and second. The early trans is also distinguished by the reverse-gear collar that must be raised to select reverse. The blue-tag trans has a high-detent reverse gear selector and helical-cut gears. It is much more quiet. Both generations will handle hp upgrades under the hood reliably with one caveat - this trans does not like to be rushed. Leave power-shifting off the table with this one. Most owners will never have trouble but take heart if you do: the ZF Doc can repair or upgrade (But have money, these complex units require special tools to work on. Anyone who services them is gonna get paid).

The stock ZF6 flywheel is a dual-mass unit. Conventional wisdom is they cannot be resurfaced. I don't know whether that's true, but unless the flywheel has been really abused, you might consider scuffing the surface with a Scotchbrite pad and re-using an otherwise good one when you do a clutch job. Probably someone will caution this isn't a good idea since the dual-mass spring setup fatigues with age and will inevitably fail or something along those lines. All I can say is I haven't seen a failure on a street/autox car. If they are still available, an OEM replacement is expensive. Many guys swap a one-piece aluminum flywheel (think Fidanza). A steel flywheel can be adapted if you are really motivated. The lower inertia and rotational mass of an aluminum flywheel is appealing to lots of owners, but I personally avoid it because of the accompanying increase in gear rattle. At idle it can sound really awful.

Power upgrades: the L98 has super long intake runners - effectively several feet. If you like torque and want to keep the setup, be aware that the usual hod-rod tricks can actually hurt performance unless approached comprehensively. Switching to siamesed or oversize upper runners or porting the cylinder heads can reduce velocity and cost power, torque or both. A header install as a stand-alone change also doesn't really give you much. There are many resources available if you want to explore changes to the long-runner intake. Back in the day, TPIS sold miniram and superram intakes that were well regarded, but not cheap. The miniram is something you can clone on the cheap by using a later LT1 intake and drilling it to accept a distributor. This setup can be economical and make good power when done properly. The factory bottom end uses four-bolt mains but is not forged, so while there is a practical limit on the power you can extract from top-end enhancements you have to want to make a lot of power to call for a crank/rod/piston swap.

patgizz
patgizz PowerDork
1/20/16 9:41 p.m.

you can say that again about the superram not being cheap. i sold one that was beat up and ground on for $600 and my mint one for $1300.

i ended up switching to a single plane intake and carb when i buggered up my wiring harness as i sold off my stock tpi unit when i put the superram on. i'm probably just going to LS swap my 91, as it makes the most sense to me. i'd love to find a wrecked 6 speed donor car, but at the rate i'm going i may as well find a t56 and build a torque arm adapter.

midniteson
midniteson Reader
1/21/16 1:54 a.m.

In reply to conesare2seconds:

Thank You for all the Info! Any ideas on a cheap manual swap?

I have a spare WC T5 5spd for my Firebird. It seems i can get a C beam adapter to make it work. Ive only found

one or two swaps documented online. Seems like my best bet seeing as i already have the T5. I was thinking if the

T5 grenades i could upgrade to a early T56 using the same adapter.

Stanger2000
Stanger2000 New Reader
1/21/16 8:47 a.m.
midniteson wrote: In reply to conesare2seconds: Thank You for all the Info! Any ideas on a cheap manual swap? I have a spare WC T5 5spd for my Firebird. It seems i can get a C beam adapter to make it work. Ive only found one or two swaps documented online. Seems like my best bet seeing as i already have the T5. I was thinking if the T5 grenades i could upgrade to a early T56 using the same adapter.

Just remember that the 'World Class' T-5's had a 300ftlbs TQ rating so not sure how well it would stand up behind that torquey 350 in the C4. Might be a reason they never fitted T-5's to the Vette's or the F-Bodys with the LT1's of that era. Granted they are abundant in fox body 5.0's and some have stood up to modifications but if it were me, I'd stick with the auto until that grenades if it does and then go straight to the T-56.

conesare2seconds
conesare2seconds HalfDork
1/21/16 1:33 p.m.

I agree with Stanger. Given the price of a T-56, it's not a cheap swap. I raced an 88 with a monster 383 and a TKO 5-speed behind a steel flywheel. The ZF6 slave cylinder is a push type that must be swapped for a pull type (Wilwood provided an affordable solution). But Kiesler is no longer a going concern, was even more expensive than a takeoff T-56, and etc.

Instead, I'd run the automatic. Leave the gear selector in 2 for most autox courses, or launch in 1 then shift to 2 and leave it there. With automatic, check the factory RPO sticker (under the armrest or the rear passenger storage area, depending on year). If the car is G92 that's the performance axle and you could call it good. If you have the economy gear, or if you want a little more gear and you are sure of the rules in your sanctioning body and are cool with how the change is treated, you can put a numerically higher gearset in the rear end as previously discussed.

I meant to add that power steering is something that may want some attention on these cars. I've already talked about LT1 ps issues. On L98 cars, you may find the steering is heavier than it should be or there is pump noise, especially after an autox run when the fluid has gotten nice and hot. A prior owner may have encountered this and put a thickening additive in the reservoir, a bandaid that kills steering feel. Just put fresh fluid in it, you don't automatically need a new pump even if it's mooing like an amorous cow. On Z51/2 cars there is usually a cooler. Disconnect the low pressure hose and drain the system, then refill with a high quality fluid such as Valvoline Synpower. Be sure to burp the system and etc just like any other car. Plan to replace the factory compression-fit hose clamp with a different type clamp since you will stretch the original when you remove it. Lacking a PS cooler, you can use the turkey-baster trick, or whatever way you prefer to flush the system with new fluid.

Petrolburner
Petrolburner HalfDork
1/21/16 1:57 p.m.

I'm not sure what's wrong with people in Oregon, but the C4s I see for sale are asking the same amount that you can find a C5 for. $9k-$16k generally. That's for any LT1 equipped C4, so 92 or newer. I don't pay much attention to anything without at least the LT1. There just doesn't seem to be enough of a price differential in the C4 vs C5 around here, so then I think to myself why not just keep my C6?

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