c5 or e36m?

I'll be looking at a getting my first summer only car next year and am pondering what to get. My heart has been set on an e36 M3 for a couple of years now, but my wife would be much more excited with a C5 vette. While she doesn't autox, I do. How do they compare on an autox course? How do they compare for cost of ownership (I do the vast majority of my own work) (I know the initial cost of the vette will be higher, but that's OK.) I've been researching the e36 for a while and would be very comfortable working on it. But I don't know much about the vettes. The M3 is more practical as far as hauling more people and "stuff" but then I'm keeping my Jetta for winter and anytime when the summer car might not be practical. MPG is an issue these days, but I'm pretty sure these two should be pretty comparable.

Your thoughts please.

Believe it or not, the interior ergonomics and layout of the two cars is the biggest difference between them. This is a true case of 'you just have to drive it' before you decide. I really like the ergonomics of BMW's (I've owned five), but Corvettes just don't work for me - I feel swallowed up in them. Otherwise, they're both awesome cars for an enthusiast driver.

As much as I LOVE a C5 vette, it's impossible to avoid the mid-life crisis, and small manhood comments. Whereas with a Bimmer, you just look like a dick (to the average joe)

Vettes get decent mileage with a manual, automatic I have no idea, but I've heard M3's can be thirsty too. To be blatently honest, I've never driven either, so my comment really has no value.

I'd say an M3 would be a better bang-for-the-buck value, as most Vette owners, and car lots too, think Corvettes are made of solid gold and do not depreciate.

I picked up a C5 Corvette Coupe about a month ago as my summer/nice weather commuter/road trip car.

Its tough to beat.

30+ real world MPG on the highway with the 6 speed. 24 MPG in mixed commuting.

Huge community (coming from the DSM world, its rare to find an online community as large and as good as the DSM world)

Cheap parts (its a Chevy after all, with all the wonderful parts bin engineering that comes with)

Stone reliable (its mainly truck, Camaro, and Malibu parts, after all)

Fantastic exhaust note with an aftermarket exhaust.

As many mods as you can dream and then some. Everything from custom leather interior to retractable hardtops to streetable 700 horse engine builds have already been done and documented.

Common (30k cars a year 98-04, 8k 97s) Plenty getting parted out for cheap used parts

Enough room for 2 adults and a few days worth of stuff like bags, chairs, cooler, and still take the targa off and store it in the trunk when the weather allows.

REMOVABLE TOP! The regular coupe cars, not the fixed roof coupes (FRC) or Z06 cars, have a removable targa top that removes without tools in less than a minute and stores safely in the hatch. What fun is a nice weather car if you can't pop the top?!

Still gets the look. M3s are cool but most people think they are just another car with nice wheels. Corvettes look like Corvettes.

The C5 Corvette is the greatest performance car bargain of all time right now. Nice ones can be had in the 13-18k range. I got mine for 15k and it had the following; new Michelin tires, new Vararam intake, new SLP exhaust, OEM Magnesium wheels, new Optima battery which is a must-have on Corvettes due to battery/ecu placement, Z51 suspension, 6 speed, tinted windows, high dollar but crappy aftermarket stereo which is coming out, and its a 2002 so it has all the goodies from the factory like the LS6 intake and MAF and some other running upgrades that first appeared on the later C5s.

The only bad issues on the C5s are the crappy leather on the seats, but a complete aftermarket leather recover kit is $700 or less and expensive tires. The rest of the car is rock solid. GRM should do an article on them.

Drive both and then decide.

JG's C5 Fixed Roof Coupe was pretty cool--strong highway mpg, great chassis, fast, etc. It can carry more than you'd think. Those doors are huge, though, and you do feel a bit swallowed inside. I'd also expand the search to the C5 Z06 as prices have slipped thanks to the newer cars.

The BMW feels a bit more nimble and has a real back seat. Personally, I think the E36 interiors are showing their age, and that's either good or bad. Basically, drive them and then decide.

By the way, soon we'll be running a C5 Z06 buyer guide.

You can pick up an E46 M3 for the price of a Z06, though, and that's a whole 'nother comparison altogether.

i just drove the two back to back yesterday...well not exactly the BMW wasn't an M but an E36 convertible in great shape. Whoever said that you feel swallowed up in the Vette sure was right. This E36 won't perform like my Z (nor would I expect it to) but it sure does feel sweet. Tough call

I've never driven a C5 but I do have an E36 M3 sedan. Its an auto so that limits the hoonage but it is fun to drive.

It is my DD and works pretty well for me. I need new shocks and struts so the handling kinda sucks right now but, if the onboard computer can be believed, I average 29.4mpg on my mixed commute.

Stock, my 97 is rated at 240 hp & torque but I doubt mine has that with 176k on the clock. It does have enough power to bring a grin to my face though but when is "enough" really enough? I'd like more power but I can't rationalize paying more than 1/2 the bluebook value for a turbo.

David S. Wallens wrote: By the way, soon we'll be running a C5 Z06 buyer guide.

May I politely request that you expand that buyers guide to include non-Z06 C5s? There are so many bolt-on options for those cars that a non-Z06 version can be hopped up easily and inexpensively. Plus it would be interesting to compare the two from a driving/track perspective. Thanks!

dyintorace wrote:

David S. Wallens wrote: By the way, soon we'll be running a C5 Z06 buyer guide.

May I politely request that you expand that buyers guide to include non-Z06 C5s? There are so many bolt-on options for those cars that a non-Z06 version can be hopped up easily and inexpensively. Plus it would be interesting to compare the two from a driving/track perspective. Thanks!

This...

A few cheap suspension upgrades like Z06 takeoff parts, some sticky tires, and a little intake and exhaust work :) can have the regular C5 coupe run with a Z06.

Thanks for all the replies. looks like this is good forum to be on. (Amazingly no one suggested a miata instead!)

Well I have close to a year to make a decision. I am glad to hear the vette is "rock" solid. I'm not really a Chevy guy, grew up as a Ford guy, but now I just get what makes the most sense for my needs/wants. 30+ mpg hwy for car that fast, wow, too cool! 30 is all I get with my Jetta.

I may be edging toward the vette at this point.

Oh, and I'll be looking forward to the guide on the vette in GRM. And I agree, make it for all c5's, not just the ZO6

Go with the M3 if you intend to do any amount of dd or city driving. The seating in the vette is very close to the ground, which gives you no vision. I pulled up next to a C5 a few days ago in my Mk6 Golf and my head was close to a foot higher than the old timer in the vette. I've test driven one and hated throwing myself out on the pavement to get out of it. I've been in plenty of lowered cars, but you practically lay on the floor in the vette with your feet straight forward.

All the buttons are typical GM parts bin stuff. I don't know who thought it would be a great idea to use the same window switches, turn signal/cruise control stalk, wiper stalk, radio, etc. as a Cavalier, but I kind of expect higher quality from a performance car.

I have more experience with the M3 than a C5, but if I were choosing between them with an eye towards auto-x, I'd chose the C5, probably a FRC and prep for A Stock.

While tires for the M3 will be a tad cheaper to buy, the C5 has a better reputation for being easier on them due to a better front suspension design.

Regardless, both cars have their positives and negatives and I doubt you'll be unhappy with either of them.

YaNi wrote: Go with the M3 if you intend to do any amount of dd or city driving. The seating in the vette is very close to the ground, which gives you no vision. I pulled up next to a C5 a few days ago in my Mk6 Golf and my head was close to a foot higher than the old timer in the vette. I've test driven one and hated throwing myself out on the pavement to get out of it. I've been in plenty of lowered cars, but you practically lay on the floor in the vette with your feet straight forward. All the buttons are typical GM parts bin stuff. I don't know who thought it would be a great idea to use the same window switches, turn signal/cruise control stalk, wiper stalk, radio, etc. as a Cavalier, but I kind of expect higher quality from a performance car.

Imagine me going from a lifted 2500 4x4 Dodge Ram on 35s to a Corvette! Its quite the change in driving styles. I love them both though, for different reasons. The seating in the Corvette is low, but I want my sports cars to feel that way, not like a regular sedan! Its no different than any other sports car. The door switch modules are unique to the car and pretty damn cool rubber coated buttons. Hold up well too! The turn signal stalk is a copy of something out of the GM parts bin, but who cares? Its functional, good looking (or not offensive at least) and easy to use. Sure the switchgear, trim, and fit and finish is not on par with the best offerings of Mercedes Benz or Bentley, but for performance its a supercar at used Honda prices. You can always get stick on burl wood trim if you need that to consider it a quality auto.

An M3 is a tarted up base model 3 series. Of course they are well tarted up and do look pretty cool, but its still a 3 series for good or bad. A Corvette is a unique car that's price point is made possible through the wonders of parts bin engineering but every part on it screams Corvette. They don't even have any Chevy badging other than in the DLC when you turn it on. "Corvette by Chevrolet" and the tiny bowties on the Corvette logos.

To expand on the 30 MPG comment I made earlier, keep in mind that is 6th gear, freeway, cruise set, and under 75. Anything else and it will dip in the mid 20s. Still damn impressive though if you ask me. Chevy set these cars up on purpose to get good mileage on the highway to avoid the gas guzzler tax that other supercars have.

C5 no question. The BMW ownership experience is not so fun in my experience. The C5 is much cooler and is a funner car.

Wow, great comments, Thanks guys.

I agree.. I am a BMW owner.. but I also like the vette... but absolutely hated the interior.

Whichever one you can live with.. you will not be diappointed.

As for tarted up 3series.. BMW did more than just change the bumpers on the e36 M3.. the suspension and brakes ARE different from the stardard 3 series.. and it is believed that some of the sheetmetal might be thicker to cope with the additional stress. BMW is not one to half ass something like the flagship of their model line up.

Granted the E36 M3 was the least different looking of the M3 series.. It DID look like a tarted up standard coupe

mad_machine wrote: and it is believed that some of the sheetmetal might be thicker to cope with the additional stress. BMW is not one to half ass something like the flagship of their model line up.

Hmm... I don't know about that. The M3 seems to be just as susceptible to the rear sub-frame pulling out as any other E36.

Ha! A Dodge 3500 to a Vette is nothing! Try jumping from a Dodge Cummins 4x4 into a Spitfire. In a Spitfire, you look up at Vettes!

I'm a BMW guy but if I was looking to purchase a car that could do well in competition with the least modification, and also be livable for some weekend cruising, I think it's a no-brainer - get the nicest C5 you can afford. As has been pointed out already, with rather little work, you can make it run with the Z06. Back when it was current, I hung out at the track with a guy who was chasing 911 GT racecars around the track no problem. It was a regular C5, with Z06 brakes, intake and headers. I got to learn quite a bit from him about the car - like the fact that the body is fiberglass and balsawood, so he had to put aluminum plates to sandwich it for the racing bucket, and that even Porsche engineering fanbois are impressed by the Corvette suspension.

And like many cool American cars, it has a very pleasant subculture. This is personal opinion but I dislike the BMW crowd in general. Most of its members are only interested in thugging around in one (one guy I know who works at a BMW dealer in the parts dept, has got to the point of refusing to sell M badges to kids without WBS VINs). Bimbos like Jeremy Clarkson will make fun of the car, calling it a plastic box on leaf springs, when it's really a composite shell, with advanced IRS suspension (and yes a transverse fiberglass leaf spring instead of coils which also doubles as the roll bar, and easy to replace with coilovers). It also weighs less than the E36 M3...

Ian F wrote: Hmm... I don't know about that. The M3 seems to be just as susceptible to the rear sub-frame pulling out as any other E36.

Can you provide some examples? The M3 came with reinforcement plates to avoid this very problem. I've never hear of an E36 M3 with the subframe mount sheetmetal failure.

If you get a 2001+ Corvette, they all have the Z06 (LS6) intake. Headers, exhaust, cold air intake, non-runflat tires and suspension upgrades like Z06 takeoffs or the Z51 optional suspension (available on coupes and verts, look on the RPO sticker inside the glove box for Z51) and it will hold its own against a Z06. Regular coupes (not the fixed roof variety) actually have a higher top speed than the Z06 due to longer gears and better aero. Brakes are identical between the coupes and verts and Z06 cars aside from the color of the calipers.

The Z06 has a ton of cool race features like thinner glass and less sound deadening and of course the 405 horse LS6 (395 or so on the 2001s)

The transverse leaf spring does not double as the sway bars, its just a spring. There are still swaybars. The 02+ cars got metal endlinks. You can remove the leafs and add coil overs if thats your thing. Thats the coolest thing about Corvettes. You name it, its been done and documented online. The only thing I am having a hard time finding is base tuning instructions using EFI Live or HP Tuners. As someone of the "Tuner Generation", and coming from the DSM world, this is a huge disappointment.

BigD wrote:

Ian F wrote: Hmm... I don't know about that. The M3 seems to be just as susceptible to the rear sub-frame pulling out as any other E36.

Can you provide some examples? The M3 came with reinforcement plates to avoid this very problem. I've never hear of an E36 M3 with the subframe mount sheetmetal failure.

I have read a lot on m3forums about the e36. There are some weak points, but not that I have seen in any in regard to the subframes. The mounting points for the sways and RTAB pockets are weak, but there are aftermarket reinforcement plates available for those. Cooling system is also a weak point and there are a lot of examples where it has failed and the owner needed a new engine. Again there are economical aluminum options for the cooling system too.

I would have to agree that Chevy could have easily made the vette with better fit and finish and used some nicer components which wouldn't have raised the price point enough to deter many drivers. This has been biggest complaint from the big name car mags for years. But these things are not really a problem for me.

I did have the pleasure of going around the track in a Z06 with a very competent driver and I have to say it was the most fun ride around the track I have had yet. I also rode around the track in an M3 sedan, but I wouldn't say he was the best driver, so that makes it harder to compare.

BigD wrote:

Ian F wrote: Hmm... I don't know about that. The M3 seems to be just as susceptible to the rear sub-frame pulling out as any other E36.

Can you provide some examples? The M3 came with reinforcement plates to avoid this very problem. I've never hear of an E36 M3 with the subframe mount sheetmetal failure.

We sold the M3 back in '04, so I haven't kept current with the boards (as you mentioned, not the most fun group in the world and w/o the car, no reason to hang out there), but back then first-hand postings about the RSF tearing out of the sheet metal in their M3's were popping up. Some on track-driven cars, some on cars that had never been on a track.

Personally, I'm not saying that would disuade me from buying an E36, since fixes for the problem are well documented.

The C5 has the advantage in almost every performance category but when you drive one in anger you fell pretty disconnected. A regular street C5 has numb, overboosted PS, a goofy shifter and the view over the hood makes you seem like you are driving a Matador. I would research how to make a C5 Vette "feel" like the M3 or swap the LS into one

I have been in a C5 Z-06 race car and it does not suffer any of these issues (except the Matador hood)... so asking the right people how to fix the feel of the stock one is a good answer.