When getting basic machine shop work done, what sort of questions should i ask them to ensure they are going to do things the right way, or to ensure they include doing services that other shops do?
When getting basic machine shop work done, what sort of questions should i ask them to ensure they are going to do things the right way, or to ensure they include doing services that other shops do?
What kind of work? If it's pretty common you can just ask and compare.
Around here the qualifying question is "are you taking new work" :-0
In addition to seeing if they're taking on new jobs, see how parts availability is for whatever you're doing, and what their turnaround time is.
Even pre-covid, I've heard of some nonstandard projects sitting at machine shops for a while, like my buddies Buick nailhead motor. Same rules apply for body shops, maybe even more so.
I'm going to guess that this is referring to engine work?
In which case there are many questions that should be asked or verified. These two topics should quickly determine if the shop is good or not as far as the work they do.
Cleaning: If they're tossing things in a spray washer and leaving anything that doesn't come off...that's bad. If the time or proper method isn't being done to ensure that you have a completely clean/fresh part then you're taking risks.
Head work: Knurling guides has its place but that is very rare. If they're too lazy/cheap to replace guides or do liners properly then other corners are likely being cut. If they don't have a proper seat and guide machine with insert (3 angle type) cutters and are grinding valve seats....take your stuff elsewhere. Sure grinding seats works but a poor job of it can and will kill power. Not to mention that consistency is basically non existent. A valve job done right involves complete cleaning, inspection for cracks/damage, replaced guides (if needed), polish and grind valves (back cut if competition application), valve seats all cut to within a few thou of each other in height (this makes all the tips and springs match heights too), then the valve job should be blended to the throat and chamber (competition application), clean again, assembly with matched valve tip and spring installed heights.
You'd be amazed just how BAD a job can be done and an engine run. You'll also be amazed and just how GREAT an engine can perform when things are done right.
paddygarcia said:What kind of work? If it's pretty common you can just ask and compare.
Around here the qualifying question is "are you taking new work" :-0
Shops are closing like crazy in Ontario and the ones that are still open prefer to do industrial work. The hobby guys in my area are on a months long waiting game and happy with even that. You would think that this represents a business opportunity, but I guess there is not enough $$$ in doing automotive machine work anymore.
From your end, the best bet is to communicate what the engine will be used for and listen to their advice.
Is it common place for a machine shop to do all the cleaning? Or is that something they expect me to do? Also I would be providing all of my own parts to ensure that quality parts are used, and are in hand when dropping everything off.
The good shop in our area is happy to work with customer parts, and having all the stuff in hand is super valuable - time sourcing parts is time off the machines.
I ended up cleaning my block after machining because it helped get things moved through the shop, which helped me get a spot in the queue. If I hadn't been confident I could clean it well he'd have done it, though, as any shop should.
NOHOME said:paddygarcia said:What kind of work? If it's pretty common you can just ask and compare.
Around here the qualifying question is "are you taking new work" :-0
Shops are closing like crazy in Ontario and the ones that are still open prefer to do industrial work. The hobby guys in my area are on a months long waiting game and happy with even that. You would think that this represents a business opportunity, but I guess there is not enough $$$ in doing automotive machine work anymore.
From your end, the best bet is to communicate what the engine will be used for and listen to their advice.
I know of three machine shops locally that closed, one where I was an employee. Part of the problem is getting good machinists. Part of the problem is people who heard about some place that would bore an engine block for $10 a hole (in 1985) and want to know why it is going to be so much more? And the rest of it is that by and large engines do not need that much machine work done anymore. Everything either lasts long enough to never need rebuilt or when it fails there are no serviceable parts left inside compared to getting a used engine with a warranty.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
A lot of new engines have siliconized aluminum blocks and can't be rebored. So the machining options are few.
A typical industrial client at an automotive machine shop backs up to the loading dock with a smoldering lump of industrial diesel engine and says "Fix that while I go grab another one"
The retail/enthusiast needs an hour of your time to discuss their plans, price and lack of experience.
NOHOME said:
The retail/enthusiast needs an hour of your time to discuss their plans, price and lack of experience.
The honest truth.....even worse if they're an engineer or avid bench racer because is almost a guarantee that they'll get hung up on using a very specific part (bench builder) or doing a very specific thing (engineer). Which always seems to be either irrelevant to their build at best or down right wrong.
When I was still doing engine machining I knew I'd pretty much always have to set aside 1-2hrs when a new customer brought in a full build and at least that when they picked it up. I was pretty good at upselling dyno tuning though (that way we both KNOW it was good when it left). Friday's, they show up in the morning after the engine has been tuned. Do a pull or two so they get that experience then get it ready to send with them. Have lunch and send them on their way.
working in an automotive machine shop is hard, heavy, dangerous work that requires a fair bit of education, experience and skill. Pays less than $20/hr Canadian.
Much better life to just babysit a CNC machine for 8 hours or deliver Ubber Eats.
In reply to NOHOME :
exactly!
I changed to industrial machining almost 7 years ago now. It requires 10 percent of the knowledge/brain power, effort, and most importantly...stress, plus it pays WAY better. I currently make double what any engine machine shop in the state was offering back in 2015 at which time I had 8years experience and had been managing shop workflow, customers, orders, and even teaching classes for 4 years. I miss doing the work.... I DO NOT miss the job.
Asphalt_Gundam said:In reply to NOHOME :
exactly!
I changed to industrial machining almost 7 years ago now. It requires 10 percent of the knowledge/brain power, effort, and most importantly...stress, plus it pays WAY better. I currently make double what any engine machine shop in the state was offering back in 2015 at which time I had 8years experience and had been managing shop workflow, customers, orders, and even teaching classes for 4 years. I miss doing the work.... I DO NOT miss the job.
Yeah, end users are not willing to pay what it takes to do the job... Industrial guys don't care, the difference is that the end users are doing it for fun, industrial guys are doing it for money. And they're losing money if the machine is down.
Being a performance engine machine shop is a lifestyle choice. It is all consuming, and nowadays you can't afford to pay people living wages due to point #1, so that means you're spending even more of your time doing it. I used to train those guys on how to operate the machines they bought from us and still work with them as a contract programmer :)
WonkoTheSane said:Asphalt_Gundam said:In reply to NOHOME :
exactly!
I changed to industrial machining almost 7 years ago now. It requires 10 percent of the knowledge/brain power, effort, and most importantly...stress, plus it pays WAY better. I currently make double what any engine machine shop in the state was offering back in 2015 at which time I had 8years experience and had been managing shop workflow, customers, orders, and even teaching classes for 4 years. I miss doing the work.... I DO NOT miss the job.
Yeah, end users are not willing to pay what it takes to do the job... Industrial guys don't care, the difference is that the end users are doing it for fun, industrial guys are doing it for money. And they're losing money if the machine is down.
Being a performance engine machine shop is a lifestyle choice. It is all consuming, and nowadays you can't afford to pay people living wages due to point #1, so that means you're spending even more of your time doing it. I used to train those guys on how to operate the machines they bought from us and still work with them as a contract programmer :)
Be interesting to see where it all ends in 10 years time. ALL the shops I know are run by 60+ year olds who are counting down the days and no exit plans that involve the shop still running. The smart ones own the buildings and are looing forward to that cash-out.
The only question you need to know is: how much to not have to do this twice?
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