Car shopping = anger and frustration.

Rant of an angry guy who apparently "expects too much of people" (or so I'm told:)

As you may or may not know (from the TSX thread,) I'm searching for a ~$10k-ish sedan for a DD. Shopping around is proving to be really frustrating. I understand that any car with 100k+ miles is going to have issues. I don't expect a million little things to be outlined in an ad that's sure to scare everyone away, but for chrissake, give a motherberkeleyer a general idea of what he's getting into. My weekends are short and valuable, and I like spending them with my kid, not driving all over creation looking at piles of E36 M3.

Last weekend, I go to look at this:

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/cto/3538511472.html

Not a cream puff for sure, but if it's as well taken care of as it sounds like, the miles don't scare me. Price is about $5k cheaper than one with half the miles, which leaves plenty of $$$ for maintenance. Booze and blow. Kid's education, whatever. Plus, it's one of 2 or 3 6-speeds on CL right now, and the only one that's not an hour+ away from me.

I talk to the guy on the phone, and he's a little bitchy about meeting up with me, like I'm cutting into his busy schedule. I explain to him that I won't take up much of his time, and I'll GLADLY come to him (30 mile ride.) He asks me: "Now assuming you're happy with the car, do you have the funds to buy it?" - which I totally understand. I explained to him that I did, but that I wasn't bringing a wad of cash down to look at it. If I liked it, I'd come back for it. I told him again that I knew his time was just as valuable as mine, and I wouldn't need more than 20 minutes or so to determine whether or not I liked the car.

He talks about how great the car is, blah blah blah. I go down Sunday to take a look. Nice kid, very pleasant. Walking around looking at the car, there's at least a half a dozen little scratches and crap ("Vehicle has NO dents or dings and paint is overall shiny and looks nice.") and there's a 6" long crack in the rear bumper. The "A-spec kit" is aftermarket and the fitment is berkeleying horrible. The "fading paint" on the fender is actually a foot long, 1/4" wide section of paint that's GONE, and there's rust underneath. "BRAND NEW TIRES" appear to have about 15,000 miles on them. I can't seem to get a clear answer from this kid about how long he's owned it. He just keeps talking about how he's driven it all over creation, etc.

But berkeley it. At this point, I know I don't want the car, but I do want to drive one to see what the hype is about, and this kid has already wasted about an hour of drive time for me. We get in, and man, the interior is 10/10. He starts talking about how great the radio is and goes to turn it on, and I stop him. Then he's talking my ear off again. We go to turn out of the parking lot and there's a loud "CLUNK" from the front pass. side. I've been polite up to this point, but I think a "berkeley was that?" slipped out. "Huh? Wha? I didn't hear anything."

We get on the road and the car is pulling HARD to the right. I don't even mention it, just let go of the steering wheel a few times. I'm super gentle on the car. One little 3rd gear pull not even into vtec.

We drive for all of 90 seconds and I turn it around. I was real polite to the kid. Really no reason to read him the riot act or anything. I just wanted to get home. Pulling in the parking lot, I hit him mid sentence and off-guard with a "How many miles did you say it had when you bought it?" "Oh. Um, it had a lot of miles." "What's a lot?"

"190-something."

berkeleying great. So the kid's put 10k miles or less on the thing, and is looking to dump it on the next sucker.

We get out of the car, and I go to inspect that front driver clunk for the hell of it. Sure enough, the door to fender, fender to hood/bumper gaps are ALL berkeleyed up.

So this week, a friend posts a link to a 07 Civic Si. Car looks good. Seller points out and photographs the little flaws in the paint. 100k miles. Asking price is reasonable @ $10k, and seller is "motivated."

Talked to the guy today. Nice guy. He lives about 60 miles worth of back roads away (hour and a half+ ride.) He actually offers to meet me in between, but again, I explain to him I'm not bringing a wad of cash, and I don't want to waste a bunch of his time.

I ask him, as I USUALLY do and should have with the other guy, "Hey man, I've got no problem driving all the way out there, but am I going to have any surprises when I get there? Anything you overlooked in the ad?" He tells me how great the car is, mentions the same little exterior flaws he's mentioned in the ad, then tells me to look up the car on Autotrader, and they have a free CARFAX search.

Cool. So I check out the car on Autrader, and in this ad, it's got a pic of the rear with a temporary tag on it. No big deal. Maybe it's an old pic...but the tag expires November 2012.

I check the CARFAX, and sure enough, the guy's only owned it for 2 months. Reason for selling is because "He REALLY loves the car, but he has a company car now." When I talked to him he tells me that he drives a pickup truck. Car's got a car seat in it in the pics, so it almost sounds like it's his wife's kid hauler.

I read the ad. again, which says "Recent oil and coolant change," which I'm now assuming means "I bought this piece of E36 M3 and it's using coolant/found coolant in the oil/vice-versa, and now your loss is my gain! Priced to move!!!"

So I'm not even wasting my damned time. I'm half-tempted just to buy another $2k piece of E36 M3 with more space in the back and call it a day.

Rant over. Sorry. I don't think I expect a lot. It'd just be nice if people did me like I did them.

Know the feeling. As sad as it is, I've been thinking of using carmax. My time is just too precious.

Fueled by Caffeine wrote: Know the feeling. As sad as it is, I've been thinking of using carmax. My time is just too precious.

The reason their cars are priced higher than market is because they are actually pretty picky about what they buy, and their cars reflect that. I've had good luck with them on past purchases.

The $2k crapbox plan is a good one, though. Nothing wrong with that.

I hear ya. I have responded to ad's by e-mail since there is no phone number and get no return....unless it's something weird in the subject line with no words in the body and an attachment which I will not open. The people who you do get a hold of act like your description. Ah, the dumbing down of America.

I'm so scared of buying anything used from a dealer. Went shopping for a Mazda5 with my sis in law a few months ago. The dealer had an off-lot place that did reconditioning for them. They had a used one in the color/configuration she liked that was being cleaned up, so we drove the new one (that she ended up buying) to the off-lot spot and we looked at the used one. Ho-lee-E36 M3 this thing was disgusting. They were cleaning up the interior when we got there. It literally smelled like someone had died in there, evacuated their bowels, and baked for a week...but I'm sure when they got done with it, you'd never know it.

I really am strongly consider sticking with the old $2k turd thing (What I've been doing all my adult life.) At which point, I might consider throwing some money at the Integra. TIME is the problem. I've already got 2 stalled projects in the garage; neither of which is destined for DD/part time baby hauler status.

I'm just at the point where I can justify spending the cash on something nicer. If only I could find something nicer.

Feck.

Perhaps you might benefit from the added expense, er...I mean services and convenience of a broker...

For a lot of the masses, you sell off your DD when it's reached a certain pain threshold. Stuff that lists below market often has flaws that would put the price above market once you factor in repair cost (like bad paint and needing a suspension refresh). The sweet spot is the stuff you can fix less than the estimates - or somebody in a financial bind. On the 2k cars - they're depreciated out. If they work you can get your money back - or if there's a following, they're worth it in parts. The mystery part is identifying the source of the pain since it's not in the seller's interest to highlight it.

Woody wrote: Perhaps you might benefit from the added expense, er...I mean *services and convenience* of a broker...

I'd kick my own ass for doing that. Wait...that's not what you do for a living or something, is it?

No. I walk into fires. This is better.

I think most people who are selling don't have a clue what is the actual condition of their cars, and rest are trying to screw over some sucker. I've been looking at a lot of cars lately, and to find the three different cars I bought, I went to look at something like 25+ cars. And that's not counting the ones that got eliminated (people not answering, no returning calls, can't meet you anytime except between 5 and 6 pm on the first Thursday of the month, etc.) before I wasted my time.

And the ones that I didn't choose were not just crappy, some of the ones I went to see were scary. I went to see a Suburban whose steering had a full half lock of slop around the straight ahead position.

Or there was this 05 Sentra Spec-V whose engine was running really rough (CEL is on). The owner says he doesn't feel anything, and his mechanic says the CEL is no big deal. I pull out my scanner and plug it in (with owner's permission) and there was something like 5 or 6 codes, and some of them serious (misfire on one the cylinder, knock sensor, etc.) I take the time to really look inside the engine bay and I see the most botched up engine installation ever. A bunch of stuff not plugged in, the loom hacked in a bunch of places, etc.

And of course, this being the great white north, you can't forget the "rust-free" cars that look good on top, but that are actually on the verge of breaking in two when you look under them.

Shopping used is an exercise in frustration. Still beats getting screwed by the stealerships.

poopshovel wrote: I'm so scared of buying anything used from a dealer. Went shopping for a Mazda5 with my sis in law a few months ago. The dealer had an off-lot place that did reconditioning for them. They had a used one in the color/configuration she liked that was being cleaned up, so we drove the new one (that she ended up buying) to the off-lot spot and we looked at the used one. Ho-lee-E36 M3 this thing was disgusting. They were cleaning up the interior when we got there. It literally smelled like someone had died in there, evacuated their bowels, and baked for a week...but I'm sure when they got done with it, you'd never know it. I really am strongly consider sticking with the old $2k turd thing (What I've been doing all my adult life.) At which point, I might consider throwing some money at the Integra. TIME is the problem. I've already got 2 stalled projects in the garage; neither of which is destined for DD/part time baby hauler status. I'm just at the point where I can justify spending the cash on something nicer. If only I could find something nicer. Feck.

I can understand your apprehension, but I believe you have to divide "dealer" into a strict used car dealer and a marque, your local Ford/GM/Chrysler/Mazda/etc.. new/used dealer. Having worked in the service dept of a marque dealer reconditioning the spoils of the auction or trade ins, 9.9/10 times, the interior never had a funny odor. If it did, it was cigarette smoke. The strictly used car dealers get the left overs of what the marque dealers buy/sell. Most of those are something that a "respectable" (Oh boy...) dealer won't or can not sell on their lot.

I don't have a problem buying from the dealer, either marque or used, but I just give it the same check over I would any car. I only ask to see the used car inspection repair order to know more about the car that has been fixed or not fixed.

Ranger50 wrote:

poopshovel wrote: I'm so scared of buying anything used from a dealer. Went shopping for a Mazda5 with my sis in law a few months ago. The dealer had an off-lot place that did reconditioning for them. They had a used one in the color/configuration she liked that was being cleaned up, so we drove the new one (that she ended up buying) to the off-lot spot and we looked at the used one. Ho-lee-E36 M3 this thing was disgusting. They were cleaning up the interior when we got there. It literally smelled like someone had died in there, evacuated their bowels, and baked for a week...but I'm sure when they got done with it, you'd never know it. I really am strongly consider sticking with the old $2k turd thing (What I've been doing all my adult life.) At which point, I might consider throwing some money at the Integra. TIME is the problem. I've already got 2 stalled projects in the garage; neither of which is destined for DD/part time baby hauler status. I'm just at the point where I can justify spending the cash on something nicer. If only I could find something nicer. Feck.

I can understand your apprehension, but I believe you have to divide "dealer" into a strict used car dealer and a marque, your local Ford/GM/Chrysler/Mazda/etc.. new/used dealer. Having worked in the service dept of a marque dealer reconditioning the spoils of the auction or trade ins, 9.9/10 times, the interior never had a funny odor. If it did, it was cigarette smoke. The strictly used car dealers get the left overs of what the marque dealers buy/sell. Most of those are something that a "respectable" (Oh boy...) dealer won't or can not sell on their lot. I don't have a problem buying from the dealer, either marque or used, but I just give it the same check over I would any car. I only ask to see the used car inspection repair order to know more about the car that has been fixed or not fixed.

This was at the Mazda dealer. She ended up with the new one. Perhaps it was just a clever sales technique.

"Now you COULD get the 5 year old dead hooker model. OR, for just a few grand more, you could have this poopiehookerstank free diamond!"

Winston wrote:

Fueled by Caffeine wrote: Know the feeling. As sad as it is, I've been thinking of using carmax. My time is just too precious.

The reason their cars are priced higher than market is because they are actually pretty picky about what they buy, and their cars reflect that. I've had good luck with them on past purchases. The $2k crapbox plan is a good one, though. Nothing wrong with that.

Nah, they have the same E36 M3, they just snaz it up a bit and ask 3k more than new.....or at least, that's how the Indianapolis one works. I've been there only 4 times over 4 years, and they still have the same mazdaspeed 3's from 4 years ago, with the same milage and same $23k price tag. The ms6 I drove there had 12k miles and had a bad engine mount.....as in literally snapped

We generally go over our tradeins and auction cars pretty well, we 'dirt lot' a fair number. That means they go to the local auction where the 'dirt lots' buy them and then do the 'buy here/pay here' thing.

The local CarMax sent me an Avenger that already belonged to a customer. It had been clobbered HARD in the rear. Dunno how they missed it.

I was looking for a salesmen car 2 years ago - $15-$16,000 type stuff. Too many games and too much crap. Screw it - I bought a base model, option less Accord for $18,300+ tax.

I got tired of the same bullE36 M3 as well - even with $2k crap cans. I ended up paying a probably $500 "premium" over the actual value of my 1998 Saturn E36 M3box daily when I went to a dealer and snagged one. They had good pictures on their website, were pretty convenient/straightforward to deal with, and fit into my schedule easily. Like you, my time has value, especially my weekend time. In the end I'm glad I bit the bullet and did it.

Datsun310Guy wrote: I was looking for a salesmen car 2 years ago - $15-$16,000 type stuff. Too many games and too much crap. Screw it - I bought a base model, option less Accord for $18,300+ tax.

Yeah. Don't think I haven't thought "$12k? Pretty sure that buys a leftover 2012 Mazda2." Kind of the opposite of what I'm looking for, though.

I dunno. Maybe that's the right call for that price range. There are a BUNCH of leftovers at the same dealer where we bought sis's car.

I filter Craig's list down to rich neighborhoods. I have found sellers who made money the hard way, value their time and mine, and who refuse to be ripped off by dealers when they want a new car. They sell below retail, above what the dealer is offering, and know the market. Have a deposit, be first, and buy it if it's right. that has worked for me several times.

Sort of related: I used the same filtering technique looking for a modern 7.1 receiver/amplifier recently. One popped up on Craigslist WAY below market, I immediately email and said "I'll take it at asking, I'll be there at your convenience". That evening I knocked at the big assed house in the hills and a very attractive woman opens the door, points at the receiver, I pick it up and walk back out and she closes to door without asking for the money. I knocked and gave it too her, she smiles and says "oops", but she really did not care in the least about the $100 for the $1000 dollar thing her husband bought three years earlier. Those are my kinda sellers.

Well, "certain areas" are immediate "no go's" for me, but a TSX or Civic Si aren't exactly "Rich guy with big-tittied trophy wife who forgets to ask for the money" cars either, nah mean?

+1 for carmax. Bought three cars from them with zero bad experiences. They are the only used car dealer I will ever buy from.

I bought a Corolla 2005 with a 100,000 miles on it from a used car dealer. After a while I found out it had been in an accident on top of that I payed 8000 for it. Now I overpayed for it but it did have new everything like tires, brakes, ect. I want to sell it because now I don't want to drive auto anymore and I realize that to sell it, I will take a significant loss. Now the car is fine, no problems what so ever. To sell it, i would have to ask 7000 to get 6000.

Say i get 6000 and I buy the car I want from craigslist, I would have to deal with what your going through and possibly have to spend alot of money fixing it up. Its a hassle I dont want to go through again, but I still want my manual transmission car. I now what your going through.

And I'm guessing that's what these two dudes are going through. Who can blame them for trying to pass the buck? It's just frustrating. Buyer beware!

Yeah, I learned from my mistakes but I decided to avoid a headache and keep the Corolla. What I decided is I will sell my motorcycle(got a buyer lined up) and buy a nice Miata for fun. Which is less of a headache since most are not daily drivers and most are well kept by older gentlemen.

I don't know how old you are but If want a daily drive beater Buick Lacrosse are cheap and for the most part, reliable. And not owned by 20 year olds like me that beat the crap out of their cars.

Finding a good used car was tough enough when I was single or without kids. Now that I have two little ones and a 6 day a week job with the crackberry leash, I am screwed for time. So it's either new or a dealership used car. Ugh.

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine:

I feel your pain! I'm also looking and the tightwad in me says "used", the realist in me says "new" due to all the factors noted above.