Carbon Composite Springs

Could anyone please explain any type of benefit I would see on a street car? On a formula car, yes I would probably see a difference, not on a street car...

DOESN'T MATTER. CARBON FIBER, BRO.

It's just fly, yo.

I bet they are mind-blowingly light, though.

They're saying 66% lighter than "normal" springs.

So here's my question... are they $75 per corner? Or $75 per "disc?"

http://www.hypercoils.com/PDF/Hyperco_CarbonFiberBellowsSpring_datasheet.pdf

If they're $75/corner, i'll give 'em a shot.

As they point out weight and side load. Weight is pretty obvious, side load may decrease binding in your shock shaft which would be benificial. That said will you notice for street applications. Probably not. On a racer you may indeed. I would be most excited to try them on sport and MX motorcycles where the spring makes up a good amount of vehicle weight.

Also very tuneable as you can adjust total spring height/rate quite easily w/o ordering a new custom length spring.

Because Racecar? Sorry, it had to be said...

I'd be all kinds of worried about putting those on my 3500lb GT, but maybe on something like the LeGrand or Berzerkley they'd have an impact. I can see sideloading being more of an issue where you don't have a ton of iron loading the shock, and of course the % weight drop would be higher on a light vehicle.

In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:

It is $75/disc. Most likely to come out to be $600+ a corner...

What would the duty cycle be on something like this? Springs are in motion every second the car is moving. I can't imagine that flexing carbon fibre would stand up to thousands of miles of use.

DukeOfUndersteer wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: It is $75/disc. Most likely to come out to be $600+ a corner...

Blargh nevermind. Those are never going on the Escort in that case.

Unless... i could run some super short deal...

nderwater wrote: What would the duty cycle be on something like this? Springs are in motion every second the car is moving. I can't imagine that flexing carbon fibre would stand up to thousands of miles of use.

Boeing is betting the farm that it can.

Osterkraut wrote:

nderwater wrote: What would the duty cycle be on something like this? Springs are in motion every second the car is moving. I can't imagine that flexing carbon fibre would stand up to thousands of miles of use.

Boeing is betting the farm that it can.

And various road cars have had composite leaf springs over the years; so, assuming these have been designed correctly, there shouldn't be a problem.

MG Bryan wrote:

Osterkraut wrote:

nderwater wrote: What would the duty cycle be on something like this? Springs are in motion every second the car is moving. I can't imagine that flexing carbon fibre would stand up to thousands of miles of use.

Boeing is betting the farm that it can.

And various road cars have had composite leaf springs over the years; so, assuming these have been designed correctly, there shouldn't be a problem.

We ran carbon fiber/ kevlar and then just carbon fiber leaf springs on the UAH moonbuggy when I was in school. The springs had 10" of deflection and they held up pretty well.

I talked to these guys at the Performance Racing Industry trade show and got some details on the springs. They say the duty cycle is significantly longer than titanium springs, but not as good as regular steel springs (which is nearly forever).

The advantage, the way they pitched it, is the number of different spring rates you can get by combining the compressible discs with hard washers. Yes, buy-in is high, but divided out over the various spring rates you could have, it made sense versus having a box full of springs with different rates.

I can't remember the exact numbers, but it went something like this: $3000 for a full set of washers and such for a car, including extras to make more rates. /4 corners /10 possible spring rates =$75 per possible spring rate for one corner, which is comparable to regular racing springs.

(Those numbers have little bearing on reality due to my faulty memory, but you get the idea.)

So you can work it out to essentially the same price per spring rate with the right combination. And you'd have lighter springs that don't introduce a side load.

The various caveats are: You have to need all those spring rates. It doesn't make any sense for people who just buy one set of springs and call it done. You have to find a sanctioning body that will allow composite springs.

I am waiting for someone to make springs like this in a car friendly size.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: DOESN'T MATTER. CARBON FIBER, BRO.

This is basically what I see it as.

I know who The Duke of Understeer is talking about also. The guy is basically putting all of this carbon fiber E36 M3 on his car to tell people he has it on his car. He is doing DEs a 300whp mkII Jetta with no firesuit or HANS device and is deciding to buy these carbon fiber "springs" before buying safety equipment. I understand his mentality, no one at car meets gets really excited about hearing about the safety equipment you have purchased unless it is a roll cage or roll bar. Also in his lack of prioritizing skills, he drives this car to the track. I would buy a E36 M3 box truck, a tow dolly, and some safety equipment before I dump $3000+ is some carbon fiber "springs" when you already have a suspension that is fine for doing DEs.

/me.hating

Anti-stance wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: DOESN'T MATTER. CARBON FIBER, BRO.

This is basically what I see it as. I know who The Duke of Understeer is talking about also. The guy is basically putting all of this carbon fiber E36 M3 on his car to tell people he has it on his car. He is doing DEs a 300whp mkII Jetta with no firesuit or HANS device and is deciding to buy these carbon fiber "springs" before buying safety equipment. I understand his mentality, no one at car meets gets really excited about hearing about the safety equipment you have purchased unless it is a roll cage or roll bar. Also in his lack of prioritizing skills, he drives this car to the track. I would buy a E36 M3 box truck, a toy dolly, and some safety equipment before I dump $3000+ is some carbon fiber "springs" when you already have a suspension that is fine for doing DEs. /me.hating

I beg you to please not read my Escort build thread.

In reply to Anti-stance:

Sadly, a Google Image search for "E36 M3 box truck" is not nearly as entertaining as I had hoped.

In reply to Anti-stance:

Anti-stance wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: DOESN'T MATTER. CARBON FIBER, BRO.

This is basically what I see it as. I know who The Duke of Understeer is talking about also. The guy is basically putting all of this carbon fiber E36 M3 on his car to tell people he has it on his car. He is doing DEs a 300whp mkII Jetta with no firesuit or HANS device and is deciding to buy these carbon fiber "springs" before buying safety equipment. I understand his mentality, no one at car meets gets really excited about hearing about the safety equipment you have purchased unless it is a roll cage or roll bar. Also in his lack of prioritizing skills, he drives this car to the track. I would buy a E36 M3 box truck, a tow dolly, and some safety equipment before I dump $3000+ is some carbon fiber "springs" when you already have a suspension that is fine for doing DEs. /me.hating

Is that a certain person who also applies "durable" coatings to the exterior of vehicles? If so, he's not my favorite person either...

That'd be awesome on a Formula car. If they weren't made by Hyperco, I'd assume it was just some eBay BS, but that does make sense.

Interesting though, say in my case, several cars with coil overs, I would need one set, then as I tune each car's basic set up, I would buy what I want for that car, then keep the original set for tuning at the track, price is getting less and less as your fleet grows.

66% of the unsprung spring weight is significant.

Although it is still a steep price, competition will reduce it eventually.

In reply to aussiesmg:

You could do the same thing right now with STEEL belleville washers. Yeah, they will weigh alot but you could still use them to get close.

The best part is, with the steel belleville washers (not sure if you can do this with the carbon ones) you can flip and stack and do all sorts of stuff to change teh spring rate without adding or replacing the washers.

For example, if you have them stacked all the same way you have a springrate we will call 4X. If you have them each opposite the washer below you will have springrate X. You can vary the way you stack the washers to get any spring rate in between.

Just look up belleville washers.

Rob R.

Edited because I wrote bevel, not bellville.

The carbon disks are actually Belleville washers (or Belleville springs).

wiki-whateveria link

Calling them "bellows" springs is incorrect but descriptive of the stack-up.

Anyway, neat idea. I hope they sell a bunch.

Lol, yeah I was about to point out the error and provide the link above, I too think this is nifty, makes me wonder what 'cheaper', but still lightweight materials these could be made of....