In reply to pimpm3:
Your machine shop example is not relevant.
Tools are exempt. Any inside deals—parts, whole cars, trades, donations, stolen parts, etc.—must be added to the budget at fair market value.
Most of us are supporting you on this. I wouldn't push too hard.
Excellent conversation; I am not surprised at all by the level of intelligence, expressed nuance and respect. I really do not have much to add that I have not heard here already.
One point I try to remember:
This is our event, we have graciously been given shared ownership of it with the magazine. We therefore have some responsibilities as stewards of this gift. While I think that clearly means something different to all of us I also like to believe that we can (largely) manage to treat both our fellow competitors and hosts well and honor the 'spirit of the event' without an overblown nanny state witch hunt mentality.
I value productive discussions that we can all use to educate ourselves, and others, while continuing to grow and refine the event. I never worry too much about what anyone else does with their build and choose to believe (hope?) that other entrants are acting in what they would deem a fair an honest matter.
Yeepers I go away you all get all over the place.
Lots of good discussion points raised in this thread but let me clarify why I was posting this.
Yes this comes down the the Aristocrat class and seeing someone getting a GS400 for less than 1K that is otherwise a very nice car actually got me thinking about my potential Aristocrat class car and if it was really with in the spirit of the rules.
My X type was acquired from a dealer "friend" of mine. I use friend loosely as I know him through purchasing other cars from him and at my side job we get parts from his junk yard. My "Friend" owns a junk yard and sells repairable cars. My car was said to have a bad transmission but I actually knew better as I was able to have 5 min with it and realized it was the transfer case (more expensive than a trans but WAY easier to actually replace).
Here is the thing. Yes my car was on his repairable lot for about 30 minutes as I happened to be in the yard when it came in and i put an immediate deposit on it to hold it so they could get the title.
The price I paid for it was cheap. I think it was very cheep in terms of what I got. If I back in to the numbers the actual value I think should have been a lot more. But for what ever reason they took my first offer. For starters the car is dam near perfect. It was really owned by a little old lady (turns out it belonged to the mother of some one I know) that was garage kept used for going to church and grocery runs thus low millage. It was only dealer serviced (I have all the records). The interior could be mistaken for a new car. The exterior with a coat of wax and a little elbow grease I am sure will be a 9.999 / 10. This makes the street value of the now repaired car (and my current DD) well above book. I have a stading offer from the previous owner for 9K but lets use 8K as a fair market value of this car.
So if you had to pay some one to fix my car it would have been 2500. Add in some misk service and what not (again at shop rate plus parts) and an easy 1K can be added to this so we are now up to $3500. Subtract that from the 8K and that leaves 4500 deduct what a used car dealer would want to make on a sale and say use $1500 and that puts the value of my car at $3000 +/-.
See where I am going with this? I would have paid more for this car up to probably $2500 partly because I know what was wrong with it and also because I knew even at that price I would be way ahead if I wanted to flip it.
However my "friend" accepted my offer and I got a great deal. I basically got it at dealer cost. There is a bit more of a back story particularly the time line of the sale that took close to a year (that I covered in another thread about my actually acquiring the car) but for all intensive purposes I got the car at what was whole sale at the auction price even though I purchased it off the repairable lot open to the public at the junkyard.
If people are good with this that is fine with me but I read peoples story's about how they are pulling cars from fields that when I see than I am hoping they got there tetanus shots or cars that are so beat up that they are going to have to touch ever panel and piece of the car just to make it safe never mind actually any kind of added speed or handling or looks.
I guess I am feeling a little bit like I have stepped in the grey area's of the rules with my X type. I am in no way wanting others to get disqualified and if people are good with cars purchased at dealer prices (as I do occasionally) as the basis for there challenge entry I am all for it. I just do not want to get anyone irritated at me when I show up with my car. It really does not look like a $2000 car. Hell it is not a $2000 car. But I am in it at the moment for under the 2015 budget especially considering things like brakes and other things that have been repaired using OE pars that are exempt.
Anyway that is the reason behind my original post.
I haven't read the whole thread, but if a car is purchases at a closed auction (insurance, dealer, or the like) the car should be valued at FMV. That can be hard to pinpoint, so print up comps used to determine FMV.
My tools dont do against the budget because anyone can go on Snap-On.com and buy some.
Machine shop (or a buddies shop after hours) used to still have the normal labor rate deducted. Back when I built my challenge car, if the work was done at a for-profit business, labor rates applied. Is that not the case any more?
In reply to dean1484:
Anyone with a small amount of intelligence can find rather large gaps in the rules. Like it or not, they are open for interpretation. The risk is on the player.
GRM has agreed to not modify the rules for a period. If they are ever going to be changed, corrected, clarified, or modified is anyone's guess.
I am personally of the opinion that unclear rules and the interpretation thereof do not create a "nanny state witch hunt mentality". They create animosity between contestants and do not honor the 'spirit of the event'. They give an unfair advantage to those who can read through them and find the loopholes the best, and they leave less experienced people questioning the integrity of the event. They make the event cliqueish, and prevent new players from participating effectively. But that is none of my business. I have always played by the rules as presented, and will continue to do so.
Additionally, I admire the creativity people bring to this event, including creative approaches to the rules. I tip my hat to people that find interesting approaches and methods, as long as they follow the rules that do exist. I like people who bend the rules without breaking them.
As is, the rules are open to interpretation. Those that find the loopholes, find the loopholes.
The current rule reads:
"Any inside deals—parts, whole cars, trades, donations, stolen parts, etc.—must be added to the budget at fair market value."
Interpret it how you choose.
In reply to dean1484:
Yeah, we've got a Jaguar coming! This is shaping up nicely!
If anyone else is stil contemplating joining in on the fun but still needs to find the right car for The Aristocrat Class, I highly recommend a Lincoln Mark 8.
I had considered one of these for myself. Really, open the CL listings for your favorite towns and I assure you will find one with an asking price under $2,500 and then negotiate down from there.
They have an air suspension that can be changed to coils. Many you will find have already been switched to coils.
Here is the sample I considered:
http://akroncanton.craigslist.org/cto/5151387300.html
Slap on some race rubber and fresh pads and let all hell loose!
^^
Man I love those cars!
SVreX wrote: There is a GRMer who has offered his services for vinyl cutting to anyone building a Challenge car for materials cost only. Same thing.
Can I get some details about this?
The Aristocrats may need some specific insignias.
DrBoost wrote: ^^ Man I love those cars!
I'm not kidding. Open you favorite CL and the damn things are everywhere, cheap!
Detroit CL '97 w/ 132k ask $2k
I think the Aristocrat class is a little odd (even though I was part of the team that probably brought the first one). ($2005 Challenge- Cadillac SLS in full trim)
But, whatever. You can watch my orange backside from your cushy tushy warmer seats! 
You under estimate us.
We are more than a little odd! (double entendre)
I don't underestimate you.
I dare you.
See you on the track.
Anyone could have purchased the car and probably for the same price because they thought it was the transmission that needed replacement. The price however is where I get a bit squeamish. I made an offer they accepted. But I knew what was really wrong and did mot clue them in. No wink wink nod nod Bobs your uncle type things went on. I did have to wait almost 10 months from the time I put a deposit on it to when I actually purchased it due to them having problems getting a title. I also think them sitting on it for ten months may have also driven the price down to them liquidating it at cost. I don't know what was the issue with the title. I actually forgot about it until they called telling me they had the title but don't bother comming down as it was under five feet of snow. This was early march 2015.
Ohya and the wife gave the green light for me to go this year so now it is just a matter of my schedule. Are walk ins slowed at the Challenge?
Knowledge is power.
You made an offer. They accepted. Done.
The question is did they know what was wrong with it? They may have thought the worst and were stoked when you made them an offer above scrap.
Nope they thought it was a trans.
Gratuitous pic as I got it. Looks exactly the same now.
Hooray for pimpm3! He my may be the first one on here to exhibit, personify, recognize or initiate conversation on an overlooked skill set: checking out, analyzing, and buying cars as cheap as possible. When I bought the BMW that I brought to the challenge I waited until the night before the owner fled to Cuba to avoid jail time. Had to plan to be in the right place with cash at the right moment. Pimpm3 has friends and skills acquired over many years. So do the guys that weld, fabricate, and build from junk piles into works of art. I admire guys that bring nitrous LS-1 powered Datsun B2000' to the Challenge. I don't have the time or skills to build that. I can scour Craigslist or CoPart for the best deal. I can call my friend in the next town to see what's available on his lot or at the next auction. My skill set is way different than The folks that wind up in the cover. That's why I finish 27th. Maybe that's all I want to commit to doing. ( I do need to learn to weld)
patgizz wrote: Dealer auction not open to public, and dealers bid with intent to resell, keeping prices artificially low relative to what anyone else would pay, etc... I've seen so many past posts about this and the outcome is the same. Cars from dealer auctions are not budgeted at purchase price but at FMV, because most competitors can't walk in to a dealer auction and buy a car. "Hey guys look i showed up in a 2005 xxxx that my buddy the dealer snagged for me(while similar cars sell for 2x)" isn't something available to the public
Any Challenge entrant can develop a professional relationship that would just as easily grant them similarly paid (and budgeted) access to a dealer auction. This is no different than any other resource used to help complete the build.
The fact that prices at dealer auctions are significantly lower than dealer retail pricing is also irrelevant. Private party pricing on Challenge priced is typically well below dealer retail as well...Especially on presumed broken cars that people just want to get rid of, so they don't have to waste the time or take on the financial risk of getting it repaired themselves before selling it. It seems that those can get as low as, or even lower than, dealer auction/wholesale. Which makes sense when considering the auction sellers are still ideally trying to turn some minimal profit over what they acquired it for on trade in...And just so happens to be a price that the original individual seller was ultimately willing to let the car go for.
So if a private party sale price on a non-functional car is considered a FMV, what does that mean for FMV of the dealer auction/wholesale cars potentially being sold for as much, or more? A dealership still has to get rid of the broken crap people pawn off on them too, but they can't do it private party. Thus as long as there is no collusion between the buyer and seller to create an artificially low Challenge budget price, I personally see no reason why dealer auctions or repairable wholesales should be a problem from the letter or intent of the rules.
There sure are a lot of opinions in this thread. Shoulda, woulda, coulda.
I think we all know who's party it is, and who writes the rules (GRM).
The rules say "No inside deals". We know what that means.
The rules also say "4 wheeled vehicles only". We can argue ad nauseum as to what that means, the intent, original purpose, etc. Does it mean no motorcycles? No duallies? No hovercrafts?
I think it means 4 wheeled vehicles only. Don't bother bringing a Reliant Robin.
It is reasonable to discuss if the rule is good, or should be changed or modified. But for now, the rule is "No inside deals".
Interpreting the rules and playing inside them is strategizing. Ignoring the rules is different.
(I am not accusing anyone of cheating. Feel free to creatively interpret any rule. Just don't ignore them)
How about the fact that deler auctions are not open to the public? That's pretty clear.
But can you, your self, apply and receive a dealer licence of your own? If I wanted the deals a licence gets me, I'd get one. Just as a welder allows me to glue metal together. I concider it a tool.
In reply to Appleseed:
The real way to go about this is to start a scrap business. Buy a rollback and put up adds to buy junk cars.
In reply to Datsun1500:
I could venture an opinion, but I won't. Not my party, and nobody cares what I think.
The rules say "No inside deals". They also say if you run a shop and your paid employees work on the car, it counts.
Is the admin who does the paperwork working on the car?
Is the salesman who initiated the deal working on the car?
Weren't a few past challenge vehicles obtained for free in various ways? How was that handled? Not being a dick, seriously wondering. I seem to recall a "Firehawk Series" DSM that may have been free.
On a car like the Lexus in question, would the price have been much different at a public auction? I doubt it.
If the non running Lexus had landed at a Copart auction instead of a dealer auction, which in its condition it certainly could have, and was purchased from there, with the related broker fees,would it really be any different?
In some states a dealer or broker is not required for Copart, so it could have gone even cheaper.
IMO, in this case, an insider deal would have been if he got to buy the car before it hit the auction block.
Knowing how, when and where to to buy a good car at the best price is a legitimate skill that takes time to build, and takes connections, teachers and mentors. Just like being able to build a cage, tune an engine or design effective homemade headers. I don't think that skill set should be excluded from the $20xx challenge, in fact I'd to see it up close so that I can learn from it.
As Svrex already said, its not my party, and what I think hardly matters, but it think this thread is getting tired.
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