Challenge Thoughts

Grudge wrote:

Per Schroeder wrote: 1) Each team/car must supply at least one 'man hour' to help work the autocross course. This will be handled at registration under a first come, first served basis for signing up for spots.

I think it's a good idea but there should be some exemption for two-person teams and below. - I really like the idea of having the budget on display with each entry. I saw some engine/transmission combos I'd like to use in a non-$20xx car and would like to know where they were found and how much was paid. - On another note, one idea that came up was using a portable wheel dyno to check power to weight ratio. The result could factor into the overall score somehow. - Aaron

I think we actually talked about the dyno a few months back. I like this idea, too. Even if it's for nothing but bragging rights. Likely wouldn't be too hard to get a local shop to bring one out and charge $50 for 3 runs or something.

Couple of things.

First- autocross workers. In previous events, GRM hired a local group to do the entire event. Is that not true anymore? Having spent the better part of a day doing a trans swap on our car, we may be short haneded in being able to provide labor to the event. If I'm spending that kind of dough on entry fees, I would not expect to have to work the event. This isn't a typical event, but a special event where someone should be hired to run the autocross.

Second- engineered vs. well put together. First, let's change the name to fabricated, since few of the fabbed cars are actuall engineered vs. just changing stuff around. There may be a few, but the mid engined truck probably didnt' even do weight distribution calculations... But I digress. The typical fab'ed car at the Challenge isn't legal to run anywhere else. So if the concours rules side to them, then the challenge will be to make one use cars. Since the core of the event is to be capable of making a real competition car that's not just a one trick pony, this seems to be outside of the intention of the event in the first place. I, too, appreciate that there are some pretty radical builds at the challenge, and don't want to see that end. But on the same note- the cars that would still be allowed to run in street prepared, street mod, or prepared classes should get equal points if as well put together.

Not that my plans should be thought- but I had considered doing a basic engine only Alfa or Miata that's roughly a SP car to see if it could win the autocross. If there's no chance of getting decent points in the concours since there's no radical change, I would not even consider doing it- it would be pointless.

It's hard enough for the basic competitors to compete with the best fabricators, lets not put the scoring rules against that, too.

Display wise- great idea. Just remember to not require that the competiors stay at their car to answer questions. It would make it REALLY hard to walk around to see the other cars if I had to stay....

Lastly- the road course is pretty fast. Had that wheel came off there..... well, you can imagine that, too. If we did our calculations right, even set up as an autocross, we were ~70mph in the long corner on the road course in 2004.

I got to be honest. I am having a very hard time following the logic of even bothering with street equipment. Most of these cars will never see the road and they are built purely as race cars so why bother why lights, wipers, etc?

They look good in pix. And last time I checked wipers were not required.

As new owners of MSF award we did check lugs in am. We never changed tires the hub threaded holes were most likely the culprit. And we are thankful on lug replacement rule. We had a few bucks left and were going to do it anyway. They will be safety wired on next year. Call it the old a** German car rule.

How about a total change of venue that solves a number of the issues above:

• Add auto-x and concourse to the UTCC as "Challenge Options" and create a $200x class. You will have the same folks who come ot the challenge AND tons of eye candy from UTCC all in one bigger venue.
• Drop drag racing and the tire issue dies with it. It puts specific demands on teams and cars that don't align with road-racing/auto-x. Plus... I am bored by it and this is my proposal ;)
• All cars must pass NASA TT tech safety standards so there isn't any more debate about what is and isn't allowed.
• Pro-drivers and TT or above lic holders will be available for teams who are not qualified to run on the race track.

• The hotel and camping facilities are at the track and they will toss your drunk ass off the property with very little provocation. They have security that can handle hundreds of SCCA/NASA racers that have been drinking for 3 days straight. It neatly solves that issue and takes it out of GRMs hands.

• Bonus... it is fat in the middle of the eastern seaboard and thus a significantly shorter tow for, well... me.

• Bonus II: The car you build isn't a one trick pony. Guys like me who can't be bothered with creative budgeting and spreadsheets... can come an race and look over all the cool E36 M3 that people build and they can watch some road racing and see how a $2k home made car stacks up against a Riley!

I will pay my entrance fee right now.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: How about a total change of venue that solves a number of the issues above: - Add auto-x and concourse to the UTCC as "Challenge Options" and create a $200x class. You will have the same folks who come ot the challenge AND tons of eye candy from UTCC all in one bigger venue. - All cars must pass NASA TT tech safety standards so there isn't any more debate about what is and isn't allowed.

You might have noticed that the Vorshlag car has already competed at the UTCC - albeit with a different set of shocks, wheels and tires.

That TTU on the side and the NASA Tech sticker on the windshield aren't just for show. It's not a one trick pony.

I wouldn't enter that. Because i wouldn't know which car to bring. I want to do BOTH.

It seems odd to me that drag racing is even part of the event. I guess the numbers make scoring easy, and give good perspective on the cars power, but it's hardly the type of content you would expect to see in the mag. Rally cross on the other hand... To the guys that say "my car is too nice to take in the dirt", I rally crossed the same car for 2 years and didn't do any damage to it. If you know it's going to be there, you build appropriately. Thinking it would lower the quality of cars is pretty funny. You don't think the creativity of the current teams would cross over to a different, but equally interesting type of build?

It sounds like the concours is still a problem. Is it not possible (or maybe it's already been done) to have a form, and rate cars (with defined max points) based on the different categories or criteria? People would know what to expect ahead of time, and it might bring some consistency.

I wouldn't come if the drags were eliminated, either. I can autocross my E36 M3box locally for under $2000 and do quite well.

What i CAN'T do is autox and drag, and be judged at the same event with my E36 M3box.

Drags are fun because who doesn't like gross displays of power?

The drags belong. 1/4 mile is one of the oldest and universal measures of a car's ability. Rall-X and Auto-X together would be dumb, sorry. I don't know how you would build a car where you need two sets or springs, shocks, tires and maybe even sway bars for under $2K. The drags and auto-x are very different forms of competition, but they don't HAVE to have drastically different setups. And, the public can relate to drag times, so media exposure would be better. Auto-X times only mean something to folks that ran THAT track on THAT day.

I like seeing some differentation bewteen team builds with lots of different talents building track-only cars and the one or two person teams that are building street-legal cars. Almost like there should be points given to street legal cars. I know from experience that a two man team that builds a street legal car faces some serious challenges that just don't exist for teams where they have CAD designers, engineers, and CNC machines at the ready. I'm not complaining, I chose to build a street legal car in '04 and I'm doing it again now.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Drags are fun because who doesn't like gross displays of power?

this.

I dont care either way about rally - add it or dont, doesnt bother me. But tearing up the 1320 is badass. Don toss the quarter in place of Rally.

gt0954a wrote: They look good in pix. And last time I checked wipers were not required. As new owners of MSF award we did check lugs in am. We never changed tires the hub threaded holes were most likely the culprit. And we are thankful on lug replacement rule. We had a few bucks left and were going to do it anyway. They will be safety wired on next year. Call it the old a** German car rule.

Wipers were required along with working horn, headlamps and stop lights.

It is specifically mentioned and as such these items were retained and made functional to comply with the rules while others did not do so at no penalty.

Either remove the rule or enforce it is all I am saying.

From one MSF award winner to another

modernbeat wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: How about a total change of venue that solves a number of the issues above: - Add auto-x and concourse to the UTCC as "Challenge Options" and create a $200x class. You will have the same folks who come ot the challenge AND tons of eye candy from UTCC all in one bigger venue. - All cars must pass NASA TT tech safety standards so there isn't any more debate about what is and isn't allowed.

You might have noticed that the Vorshlag car has already competed at the UTCC - albeit with a different set of shocks, wheels and tires. That TTU on the side and the NASA Tech sticker on the windshield aren't just for show. It's not a one trick pony.

I did notice. I think it is awesome that you can build a car that with a pad / tire / wheel swap can hit the track for a TT.

I think it is a brilliant marriage to dissolve the $200x Challenge into a class at UTCC and then it isn't exclusively the domain of people who can do that to a price point.

To my way of thinking, it draws a bigger crowd of people with like interests but perhaps not the same priorities. Magazines, advertisers and sponsors like crowds. Even if I could meet the $200x budget - I am not sure I want to make the sort of compromises in my race car that that entails. Class rules for the rest of the year don't include freedom to stuff cheap v8s into things... (or I would so have done that) but I could completely get behind seeing your creation and mine competing for glory at the same event on just that one weekend. I like race cars - home made as well as a pro-built. I like the people that like what I like. Everyone likes VIR. I can see no downside to this.

I am sure there are people who built Challenge cars who would like the honor of laying some smack-down on cars like mine too - as much as I want my shot at those pros.

As a now 3 time competitor, I like the event pretty much just the way it is. The combination of auto-x and drag racing is really interesting to me. Only thing I would echo are the comments here about the concours. In looking at the cars that finished above us, some were obviously better (subjectively) than our car, but others are head scratchers.

Rall-X and Auto-X together would be dumb, sorry. I don't know how you would build a car where you need two sets or springs, shocks, tires and maybe even sway bars for under $2K.

No, dismissing it for those reasons are dumb. Where's your creativity?

I'm not advocating the removal of the drags, and inclusion of rally cross. Just pointing out why it makes sense.

So let's remove the autocross then, and include rally cross

I wouldn't show for a rally cross either. (inb4 someone says "well, you haven't showed yet, so who cares?)

The reasoning behind this is that so far, my daily driver is my challenge car. I suspect this is the way i will always operate, even when i do finally make the challenge for the first time, and times after that. I have no interest in daily driving a car that's set up for rally cross, since it's not fun on the street. (At least not what i consider fun, it's purely subjective.)

I don't hate the idea, just saying that i wouldn't personally do it. Not that i'm making or breaking the challenge either way, mind you.

I wouldn't mind if rally-x was added in any capacity, it sounds fun, but I sure as hell won't be entering again if the drags are gone.

If rally is done as an optional thing I would hope rally tires wouldn't hit the budget. If its mandatory then I don't care

I don't know about you guys but most of the challenge cars aren't running or even finished until days before the challenge. I don't think I would feel safe taking a untested, UN-tuned challenge car out on VIR to hit speeds of 100+ MPH. Also I think that the UTCC would not want to add additional clutter and having 45+ cars clogging up the event.

As a now 3 time competitor, I like the event pretty much just the way it is.

I agree with the above quote. As a long time drag racer I would have never entered the event if it was an auto-x only. Combing the two types of racing in one venue brings racers together that otherwise would never experience the other discipline. Building a car that will do auto-x and drag race is not that big of a leap. Even "street legal" vehicles can participate and be competitive.

Can we all win? NO There will be one overall winner. I have been to several GRM Challenges but this was my first effort at being a competitor. I finished 16th with basically a stock 87 Corvette. I didn't go expecting to win, however next year I will do my best to do better than the I did this year. I enjoy the event as it is and I have grown to enjoy and respect the other competitors for what they have accomplished with their builds. Most of all I tip my hat to the Grassroots staff for providing us with such a great, well run event at a cost that is beyond my belief that they can provide.

I'm happy that Per brought this up and Tim talked about the future of the Challenge at the banquet. So here's my 2 cents with the hopes that the Challenge will see the glory days of the first 5 years, that is big fields of creative cars....

To keep this entertaining for the readers, creativity is a big factor. To get more teams involved, fairness across the board needs to happen... If the event doesn't grow each year, changes should be considered. I remember when the entry limit was going to be set at 100 cars!

Tires: I think tires should be taken out of the budget and GRM states what's allowed (brand/compound). How is it fair that a guy that has connections (me and others) can get free/cheap tires while most have to use a lot of their budget on tires or fudge the paperwork. Tires are everything at the Challenge, make it a equal playing field for all.

Shipping: Why would we penalize someone that lives in the middle of nowhere by making them spend a lot of their budget on shipping, while some people live down the street from some of the best automotive swap meets in the country. Eliminate the shipping costs from the budget and make it an equal playing field for all, no matter where they live. When someone shows off their car anywhere and says "I have 10K in it" does the other guy ask "How much did you spend on shipping?"

Concourse: To get back to the roots of the Challenge that made it more entertaining to see and read about... make 50% of the scoring on creativity and grassroots engineering. If you want to compete for the overall you should have to work for it, not buy and polish it. The model for this year would have been the N600, hands down it was the total concourse package of years ago. Note that this is concourse scoring, not performance scoring.

Best Engineered: Seriously!?! Wouldn't the model for the "Best Engineered" be a car that at least finished 1-3 in both the autocross and the drags? I know the American education system is in the toilet (compared to the rest of the free world) but is building something that doesn't work and not competitive, really the best engineered car at the event? Hands down the bug that finished 2nd in the autocross and OBVIOUSLY would have won the drags and the event, that was hand made from junk, was the best engineered car there. Barely making the top 20 and almost rolling in a slalom (If it was RHD it would have tipped) isn't really "Best Engineered". I apologize for not being PC, but I admit the N600 should have won the concourse...

Colleges: A great way to grow the Challenge! But, they need to have their own category separate from the overall. That will do 2 things... One, it will create more of a head to head college competition/promotion/grudge amongst colleges. It would be great to see 5-10 colleges trying to out engineer/build each other. Challenge cars are more real life and cheap compared to the Formula SAE! Secondly it would equal the playing field for the grassroots teams so they don't have to compete against teams of 20+ with huge resources. The Challenge is/was about a guy in his garage vs. a guy in his garage. While some people come to this event for the fun, some people come to be competitive. Seeing a fully built college entry with 15-30 members around the car with access to whatever the college has in tools/machines is a big turn off and a reason to go play elsewhere.

Pro drivers: The downfall to the pro drivers is that they can drive the course 20-40-60 times and get the rhythm down very quickly, at least by the 20th pass... I say give them 2 passes in the car, they already know the track, and it makes sense that it would make good reading when someone learns to drive their car better because of the Challenge. After all, this was an autocross mag. Maybe have a test day the day before or the first hour open in the morning for those that are going to drive their own car on ALL of the runs during the actual scoring. There's nothing better than motivating someone to drive their own car.

FMV: As with everything in America, money takes place of creativity and hard work. The Challenge is becoming a shoppers challenge, not a builders challenge. Did anybody see a pair of Vette's this year, seriously?!? Put those 2 on the cover of GRM with "1K and 2K Vette's" and see how many new teams come out to play. When more time is spent on the "paperwork" then the car, something is wrong. The event shouldn't be about the best shoppers... I say FMV should be used and proven on any part over say $100 (when new), which includes the car itself. Evidently they use FMV on the cars entered at Chump car. Should a one off $10,000 barn find or divorce sale and a new coat of paint set a new standard for what it takes to win?

Keep the autocross and the drags. Include drifting so when I suck at the autocross I can get some styling points to make it up... Nothing like being sideways in Uranus.

PC or not, that's what I see, non of which is to benefit me more than anybody else... Yes, I have more. Oh, enforce the rules, whatever they are.

In reply to fastclown:

I like the first five points they basically keep the soul of the challenge. I don't know how I feel about the last point because to me part of the cool thing about the Challenge is people being able to hunt down cool deals and combine those with awesome fabrication skills to make a fast car.

fastclown wrote: Tires: I think tires should be taken out of the budget and GRM states what's allowed (brand/compound). How is it fair that a guy that has connections (me and others) can get free/cheap tires while most have to use a lot of their budget on tires or fudge the paperwork. Tires are everything at the Challenge, make it a equal playing field for all. Shipping: Why would we penalize someone that lives in the middle of nowhere by making them spend a lot of their budget on shipping, while some people live down the street from some of the best automotive swap meets in the country. Eliminate the shipping costs from the budget and make it an equal playing field for all, no matter where they live. When someone shows off their car anywhere and says "I have 10K in it" does the other guy ask "How much did you spend on shipping?" Concourse: To get back to the roots of the Challenge that made it more entertaining to see and read about... make 50% of the scoring on creativity and grassroots engineering. If you want to compete for the overall you should have to work for it, not buy and polish it. The model for this year would have been the N600, hands down it was the total concourse package of years ago. Note that this is concourse scoring, not performance scoring.

No comment on the rest, but these points get a definite thumbs up.

More good ideas. We just had a monster of a staff meeting and we are looking at ways to fix things for next year.

One specific answer to one of Mike's suggestions---Shipping must not be used to lower the price of the purchased part, ala eBay---Right now, there's a lot of parts that can be purchased for .99 and then cost $30 for shipping.

Per

Personally, I like the auto-x/ drag format. I guess you guys who don't like both can just keep throwing rocks at each other... I think some of the other ideas like rally-x, drifting, etc. are outside of the realistic scope of the event. I wouldn't support a higher speed event like combining with the UTCC. Seriously, you've seen some of the cars, right?

Maybe a solution to the "street"/ radical / rules debate lies in the seldom used "Locost" class. The class is for race only cars on race tires. Rarely does a car show up for the class. A couple of changes to the class could fix this and also the "street" debate. First change the class name from Locost, which brings up images of Seven clones, to Open Race, meaning whatever you want - race tires, tube frames, whatever. The current class rules require meeting the rules of some other sanctioning body's racing class. Drop that requirement completely. Now there is a home for radical builds. Complete scratch builds would be allowed with only NHRA safety standards required.

Now you have a viable second class of cars and a home for mid engined pickups, wild N600s, and scratch built CanAm cars.

This also allows enforcement of "Street Challenge" class "street" rules without excluding any cars. If you show up without lights or on race tires - no problem. You just promoted yourself to the Open Race class.

I've got a fully scratch built car that I would love to build and bring but why? There's nobody to race against in the existing Locost class and I don't want to make it to a set of sanctioning body rules. A new class encouraging blank sheet of paper creativity would make for good editorial copy and would likely be embraced by the college teams. Competitors wanting to run more street suitable cars wouldn't be up against wild machinery on the track or in the concours.

The Locost class isn't doing any good as is. Why not use it to fix the "street" debate?

Per Schroeder wrote: One specific answer to one of Mike's suggestions---Shipping must not be used to lower the price of the purchased part, ala eBay---Right now, there's a lot of parts that can be purchased for .99 and then cost $30 for shipping. Per

I think this could be worked around. What I think Mike means is that if I have to drive say 16 hours to Georgia to pick up a $1 subaru 360 shell that was offered to the entire GRM comunity why should the gas for me to go get it cost my challenge budget when someone else who lives 10 miles away could of got it for free. The car cost $1 to buy and anyone could have. Current rules it will hit the Challenge budget for $256.76 but If I lived in atlanta it would of only hit the budget for ~$20. Just seems unfair if the point is that Anyone can replicate the car for ~$20XX. The cost of the car doesn't really vary depending on where you live just possibly your cost to aquire the same parts.