Crazedlist.com is a great way of surfing multiple Craigslist areas at once.
Crazedlist.com is a great way of surfing multiple Craigslist areas at once.
I saw a LeMons car that was so rusted out that they needed to put about 30 feet of angle iron in the car so the cage would have some place to attach...
That, with a blown engine, is a $500 car, IMO.
In reply to tuna55:
That sounds about right in the middle of what I've been hearing. With $1100 in the cage, I assume $900 in the rest of the car prep for your LTD is about right? (Wheels, tires, brakes, tune-up before the 460 swap)
On the fire system, yeah I can see not going too crazy, but that GRM article a few years ago still has me spooked.
Having been a Security Worker at Daytona when Dale Sr died, I'll never do w-2-w without a HANS, period. I'd strongly suggest you guys all chip in for one that can be shared (or maybe 2 for driver swaps?). The prices have really started to come down. Trust me from my current line of work, head and neck injuries SUCK. you do not want. 
Javelin wrote: In reply to tuna55: That sounds about right in the middle of what I've been hearing. With $1100 in the cage, I assume $900 in the rest of the car prep for your LTD is about right? (Wheels, tires, brakes, tune-up before the 460 swap) On the fire system, yeah I can see not going too crazy, but that GRM article a few years ago still has me spooked. Having been a Security Worker at Daytona when Dale Sr died, I'll never do w-2-w without a HANS, period. I'd strongly suggest you guys all chip in for one that can be shared (or maybe 2 for driver swaps?). The prices have really started to come down. Trust me from my current line of work, head and neck injuries SUCK. you do not want.
You've got two separate races there. The 460 was for this race, after the cage, wheels, tires have all been settled. One team member works for tire people, so we got cheapo crap all seasons on steel cheapo wheels from Summit (like $25 apiece for wheels and the same for tires or something ridiculous).
HiTempguy wrote: Third, I said for a WINNING car. (...) Sorry, my experience is also with ChumpCar. I really, REALLY dislike Lemons.
I was gonna say, if you're concerned about racing then maybe Lemons isn't for you. But then I saw that you already know this.
HiTempguy wrote:
Why unamused? Did my math not add up EXACTLY to yours? I know he said he knew about the safety equipment... but atleast in the case of Chump - some guys don;t feel safe without new spherical bearings and JRZ dampers 
HiTempguy wrote: It really depends on if the OP wants to have a "good time" or wants to "race".
I'm a rookie just getting into this (in the Lemons series), but I don't know that those two terms are mutually exclusive. Do I plan on racing when I'm on track? Absolutely. Do I expect to have a good time? Hell yeah. It's not that I'm not competitive, I certainly am. I want our team to finish as high in the order as we can. But if I bring the car back in one piece, all my appendages in tact, and an E36 M3 eating smile on my face, then it's mission accomplished.
I spent a lot of time trying to find something in my area, but I did eventually find a drivable Escort for $300. I picked that specifically because I know Escorts really well. But finding a car under budget is easier if you have the means to pick up a non-runner.
It's usually a better idea to get a car that runs though. You'll have an easier time and fewer headaches while prepping it.
What was said about broken cars is true. Two years ago I sold a 1995 50K mile Ford Taurus for $300. Why? Because all a wrecking yard would give me was $250 so I sold it as a parts car. The car was in great condition and solid other then the two places that the front subframe bolted to. The left rear mount for the front subframe had rusted away! The part that the subfrane bolts to was just gone! It could be fixed but only by someone who had the time and space to do it and I didn't. For a shop to do it it would cost more then the Blue Book value of the car which was about $2K tops!
A Lemons team could have had a great running car. To bad I didn't know about this series at the time.
Klayfish wrote: But if I bring the car back in one piece, all my appendages in tact, and an E36 M3 eating smile on my face, then it's mission accomplished.
See, there are a lot of people that strictly go with just this. Which is fine.
But it's like saying you compete at 100 meter sprints for the fun... in 2 year old Nike's... and you didn't go all out because you didn't want to hurt yourself.
Without the "I want to do as well as I possibly can do" attitude, then you are just simply out having fun. I don't race to "just" have fun, I race to compete. The OP asked about Chump and Lemons. There is a difference. There is also plenty of reasons why I don't like Lemons (ridiculous penalties/irregular) for instance.
As for building a $300 cage 
After the CARNAGE I saw at an event that was "relatively" uneventful (it was a ChumpCar event with only around 30 cars) you couldn't get me into a car welded together by joe-blow in his garage. Welds all around the seams? Full penetration? Ya, right. I've been racing for 6 years now in events that require FIA based cages at a minimum, I know what I trust and what I don't. Having walked away from some gnarly crashes, there is a point where being cheap = putting yourself unnecessarily at risk. And above all else, MOST people (even racers) do not have the necessary welding skills to do a cage properly.
Klayfish wrote:HiTempguy wrote: It really depends on if the OP wants to have a "good time" or wants to "race".I'm a rookie just getting into this (in the Lemons series), but I don't know that those two terms are mutually exclusive. Do I plan on racing when I'm on track? Absolutely. Do I expect to have a good time? Hell yeah. It's not that I'm not competitive, I certainly am. I want our team to finish as high in the order as we can. But if I bring the car back in one piece, all my appendages in tact, and an E36 M3 eating smile on my face, then it's mission accomplished.
I have only done Lemons, but here is my take on that:
Lemons judges wear robes and wigs to look like judges. Penalties for four of can range from getting a sheet metal animal welded to your roof to being forced to jack up your car on jackstands for a certain amount of time. Penalty for contact that they deem aggressive is a three legged race to get Jay a hot dog from the concession stand. There is real racing out on the track, some really good drivers too. I am not one of them. I am a hack. That's OK at Lemons. Lemons is split up into two days so that you have an awesome party in the middle amongst the wrenching.
Chump car is more of a 24 hours race with a budget cap. Guys that get pissed off because they were docked laps (one guy in a 325i swapped badges and expected the judges to buy it, another bought a prepped IT car and tried to get it through, a few spec Miata guys tried 'I had this lying around the shop' crap) or get pissed off at excessive black flags (they do happen often, but many teams don't ever get one) and go to Chump. People, in my opinion, that take this stuff too seriously. It's a great time, both on and off the track.
Let me paraphrase it this way. I was watching a Pro Stock final. The guy who won got out and did the interview. He said "This is the best day of my life!".
If you thought "That's great, he must have worked really hard to win that round" then go race Chump. If you, like me, thought "holy crap, this guy needs more important things going on in his life, like a family or something" then go race Lemons.
ChumpCar only requires SA2005 Helmets. I bought mine for fairly cheap on a closeout. There is an article in the current GRM that talks about the SA2010 standard and how there isn't enough data available yet to determine if it is beneficial to move to that standard.
Used 3-layer driver's suit with a current SFI rating.
New nomex socks, gloves, shoes and balaclava.
I would like to buy my own HANS at some point since I'm getting married next week and I don't want to make her a widow over something fairly simple. However, many teams will share HANS devices during a race provided you have your helmet configured to use a HANS ($15 in mounting tabs, drill a couple of holes)
Yes, $1000 in gear is a year's worth of AutoX, but two things to think about:
1) The gear can be used for other events and other than occasionally re-buying or re-certifying them, they rarely wear out completely (unless you get in a serious wreck).
2) Think about how many 2 hour stints behind the wheel you could get in the course of a 24 hour race. Now add that time up and compare it to the amount of seat time you could get in a season of AutoX (even running both SCCA and PCA events)
Having run 3 ChumpCar events at PIR and talking with friends that have run at ORP and Spokane with ChumpCar and RatRace, most of the serious accidents on course were caused by a poor decision by someone who was trying way too hard. Mostly you just get the occasional bump and grind (like you would at a Karting trip) which is bound to happen with close racing.
One thing that I try to tell people who are nervous about trying ChumpCar, LeMons, RatRace, etc. is simply that the goal of the race is to finish. It isn't a sprint race, it is an endurance race. Throw away all of the thoughts you have from watching SCCA sprint races. You have control over your pace. Too fast? Slow down. Other drivers too aggressive? Pull out of the pack and let them go by. You win by completing the most laps, find that balance between speed and respect for the machinery that you're comfortable with and try to stay there. If you happen to find some similarly fast cars to spar with, bonus.
It took a few months of searching, but this winter I got all my required gear through ebay and geforeceoutlet.com for under $400 total. I want a HANS, but that's just not in the budget yet.
I was a very green driver when I entered my first ChumpCar race a few weeks ago, but I learned a lot on track and can't wait to get back out there. My event expenses ran about $900 including hotel and (local) travel. The spend means I'm having to put off building my own car for a little while, but I don't regret the decision at all.
Javelin wrote: I have no doubt the cars can be built in a good budget (I've heard that it's an honest $2000 on top of a $500 car for wheels, tires, brakes, cage, seat, belts, & repairs but that it will be good for a season unless you wreck/go boom), my issue is with the safety gear. (Not that I don't think used is good, it's fine). It's just there's so much contact at all of these races (and rolls, and fires, and flips, etc) that I would want the best safety available. That means SA2010 helmets, HANS devices, safety nets in the car, GOOD cage, fire system, etc, etc). Having never w-2-w raced (outside of a dragstrip), I own none of these. That means even sans car (so joining an established team) I would need to spend an honest $1000 in personal safety gear to play. That's 4 full years of autocross for me.
....and you'll get 4 full years of autocross seat time in your first race, while simultaneously realizing what a waste of time autocrossing is. 
I bought an official NASCAR YEEEHAWW suit, way beyond the minimum requirements for $150 on ebay. Undies were donors. I borrowed a helmet, gloves, and shoes. $150 < $1,000.
Even if you are one of those people who's compelled to go out and buy all new stuff, It's not like you're going to do ONE lemons race. It's a one time expense. Sell your old goofy open face helmet to help finance your new pimpy one.
All that said, I'd race in a Helmet, Tshirt, and shorts if they'd let me.
To the OP: We sold our fast as berkeley, but fragile LeMons CRX for $400, running and with a cage. Don't waste your time on Craigslist. Good deals come because you've got a friend who needs something out of his yard. I'm still shocked by the number of BMW's, Miatas, etc., that I see out there, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're cheating, and if they are, berkeley 'em anyway, we'll donkey-punch them all day long.
PS: As far as Chumpcar vs. LeMons: I think LeMons is way more fun off the track. Chumpcar looks a little less terrifying on track; i.e., the people who have some earthly clue as to what they're doing to people who randomly stab the brakes mid-turn for no apparent reason is much better. And surprisingly, Chumpcar seems way less uptight about fueling and whatnot. I'm not sure that's a good thing, but being able to walk through the hot pit without having to put on a full suit and helmet at RA was nice.
Poopy,
Again, I have no problems with used equipment. But with a 6-week-old at home, you better bet Mamabear is going to want me in good stuff with a HANS. Even sticking with an SA2005 helmet (that would expire in 4 years), I'd be looking at about $650 minimum for the full "get up". Again though, that's all new (and of course, can be used a bazillion times for the next umpteen years).
I keep my eyes out on CL and local swap meets for gear 
Poopyhead,
I take exception to your comment about seat time and autocross being a waste of time. AutoX'ers almost always make great track drivers but the reverse is usually not true. Ask any pro racer, they will confirm it. I do both but I definitely feel the AutoX is much more difficult to do well. That said, I do love the seat time you get in a CrapCan event. Our team will be launching mid year as we get the car ready
keep an eye on the lemons forum too, they have lots of used stinky gear for cheap.
Thank you guys for all the insight so far.... Great ideas and now my head is crunching numbers and items. We have ChumpCar in MN and nearby tracks. In all honestly, I'd love to build a car to last (solid platform). I don't want a one and done. Safety equipment will be an expense I am not planning to skimp on (it will get good use over time). My thinking is to find a fixer with many parts available in circulation (junk yard). Make it strong and reliable, speed is great but not for a couple laps.
I'm honestly not keen on sharing a cars (build) costs, it will be mine and my responsibility. Sharing running costs on the other hand... "Team" responsibilities will be made clear, so nobody feels mistreated.
I have to say, I'm getting a tingling sensation thinking of the possibilities. Thank You again everyone for the quick ideas!
Cameron
And this may be another reason why our experiences vary. Yes, there is a thriving road racing community in Alberta (considering our only road course closed down last year!), but with a population of 3million odd people, there just isn't that much used equipment floating around, and specifically, used equipment that is worth buying.
Another problem with using "used" as an example is it always paints a best case scenario. If I quote new prices, paying someone to do the cage, buying an appropriate amount of tires that would take to win, etc, you get actual realistic prices. Yes, this is GRM, but that doesn't mean you need to be able to weld your own cage which is a HUGE undertaking no matter how simple you try and make it seem.
Again, getting full gear (helmet, shoes, nomex, gloves, neck restraint device) for under $300 used is NOT common, no matter how you slice it. And also, if you've ever been in a relatively head on/frontal impact crash, you'd understand why a lot of series are requiring HANS devices. You can walk away from crashes that would normally snap your neck. I've been in them, the HANS is an amazing thing, I'd never race without one again!
In my opinion, you should always expect your team to share in the build cost. Sure, you own the car, but it could be put into the wall on the first lap by a driver that's not you. That shouldn't be 100% your loss, and if you put the majority of the time into it, it's not unreasonable for them to reimburse you for the parts costs.
doorman wrote: Hey guys, Racing is a passion I am trying to get back into (raced some sporrtbikes). Married with kids, blah...blah...blah... I don't have a lot of disposable income, but I want in! I am stunned to see some of the cars racing in Chump/LeMons I am wondering how and the hell guys(& girls) are getting these UNDER the $500 cap? Yes I know about safety equipment not counting. But I look on craigslist and the papers for cheap cars and am finding NOTHING compared to what I see racing in Chump/Lemon? Cars I find out of reach, but see racing Chump/LeMons: Miata's, BMW's, Porsches, etc. I'd love some advice on what I'm missing and how do I get this going. I'm not a mechanical MacGyver or magician, but am willing to learn. Yes I've been reading about the Lincoln on this site. But I need to hear it from others not working at a racing mag... I want to do this LEGITIMATELY and that is what I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around. Are most competitors, legit? I want this and APPRECIATE the help! Cameron (in MN. where cars don't come cheap)
Cars don't come cheap in MN? Good sir- you hang around the wrong people. I was ready for Chumpcar a number of years ago with a Celica GT- but my team bailed and the car got crushed. I have also currently in my posession a 1999 Chevy Prism that while boring as dishwater and twice as ugly, is bulletproof reliable and was acquired for the princely sum of 150$. Then there's the 1994 XJ I acquired in trade for my 1995 Taurus, the latter I had paid 100$ for. Then there's the 1988 mx6 GT I was pointed to by another board member here (92celicasometimesruns or something) that is destined to be my Challenge car, acquired for 400$. All 4 have run and driven as acquired (aside from the Heep which needs a tidy sum of 26$ for a new water pump). It can be done. Just gotta be creative.
Put me in the group that's run a few fairly successful and very fun Chump/Lemons cars for $500 per person per race (6 drivers per team) INCLUDING fuel, tires, licenses, fees, etc. $3000 + travel is a very reasonable target for each event. That even includes building a car from scratch, where the extra costs of a cage, etc. are offset by selling off any useful interior, exterior, exhaust, etc. parts that you aren't using. Making friends with racers that already have safety gear also makes a huge help in getting started. My first race I borrowed 100% of the personal safety gear...I've slowly bought more and more, borrowing as necessary.
It's certainly not the easiest path to sell off parts, borrow safety gear, use 6 drivers, etc. but if you want to race on the cheap then something has to give. Want to race a crap can? Cheaply, immediately, easily...pick two.
Bryce
We bought a lemons car that had been uh "round the block" a few times. The judges recognized the car and didn't really penalize us much. It seems like the trick is getting into the first race, I am suspicious that the faster teams utilize the "residual value" estimations to continuously improve their cars.
Just another thing to think about, why lemons/chumpcar? I started to get off thinking this would be the way to go, but how many races a year are in your area, and how many times a year do you want to race? For me, there were only 2 or so events a year I could get to. I wanted to be out there more than that, and when i looked at it I can get a car ready for nasa time trials, and if i want to eventually w2w racing for not a whole lot more than what the numbers getting thrown around here are for lemons/chump.
You'll need to log in to post.
