In reply to etifosi :
Those numbers would seem to say that we're about 50% worse per capita than the Chinese.
In reply to etifosi :
Those numbers would seem to say that we're about 50% worse per capita than the Chinese.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
It does seem like that, doesn't it?
In reply to Keith Tanner :
The same sources shared that almost 18% of the goods we consume are produced in China.
Just a pause to observe how awesome it is that when topics like this are discussed on the GRM forum, people who have actual knowledge on the subject matter comment with stats, citations, and references in addition to their personal opinions. It's one of the few places I've found on the internet where this takes place routinely.
4cylndrfury said:Example: For many years, Ohio had emissions testing requirements every so many years (2? 4? I can't remember) as part of your registration renewal. Too rich or too much exhaust? No tags for you. After many many years of this, the net result was: this epic boondoggle yielded exactly zero benefit to air quality. So it was dropped like a bad habit.
It wasn't dropped, just limited to the counties that still had air quality concerns. The counties that have air quality issues have emissions testing, per Federal guidelines for meeting clean-air standards. I live in one of those counties, and I have never not had to pass an emissions test bianually. Biennially? Every other year. My Volvo is an '06 so I had to get an E-check passing grade before I could register this year, for example.
Currently it is just basically Cuyahoga County (Cleveland metro) and the surrounding counties, but when I was getting my Ohio E-check certification this spring, the trainer hinted that there were other major metro areas that were not meeting clean-air standards and they will soon have emissions testing again. Blame the coal rollers for ruining it for you when you have to pass emissions testing again, since Hamilton was on the list he rattled off. Cars are significantly cleaner than they were when the testing was dropped.
In reply to 4cylndrfury :
Do you actually think China has no air quality laws? You seem to think they don't.
In fact, they have really tightened their laws really quickly in the last 5 years of my career. So much so that one of their requirements had become the toughest emissions test on the entire planet. Yea, they have old cars, but unlike the US, they can actually ban old cars off the road if they feel the need to. Here in the US, as long as a car is still running in a form that is legal, it can't be banned. And cars prior to 1968 have no real requirements on them anywhere.
As for the "actual polluters"- why do we have to constantly go over this? Do people just refuse to remember that the EPA and the CAA it uses is only allowed to go after companies, particularly ones that sell across state lines. They can't go after individuals, and they probably never will be able to. Seems like we have to cover that every 6 months of so, or at least every single time any news that the EPA is going after a company comes up. Can people bother to remember the structure of the law? It's really not that hard.
And (again), the individual cars are completely up to the states that register them. Some states have testing (regional or statewide), some don't. Remember that states have rights in this country, so just because PA has rules doesn't mean all states do. The requirements to test are always because there's an issue that has to be addressed in terms of air quality. The one thing the EPA does is they negotiate with a state to find a way to fix any issues.
I'm not really sure why you think the EPA is pointless WRT our cars. They (and California) set requirements for the cars to be sold new so that you have clean air to breathe. Hardly pointless. And the laws that deal with tampering have been around since the early '70s, so no company can claim that they didn't know. Every modification has a very clear path to be come a legal change. Every. Single. One. Sure, it's expensive, but it's part of doing business- should be a key factor for a company to do the process to market a *thingy*.
As for the benefit- you must have a pretty short memory, I most certainly can notice that the air quality is significantly better than it was when I was a kid. Especially when we go on a road trip.
In reply to LukeGT :
Do you have any actual information that the EPA is totally run by "green speculation"? Given you think that the EPA funding comes from lawsuits, I'm betting you have no actual information on how they work.
I know people who work there, and I also know they have some really detailed models of air quality. They do actually model the air quality impact when it comes to what kind of damages they try to get from companies breaking the laws. They have a massive data base of every single certified test for every car that has been sold in the US for many decades (the older data isn't there anymore). It's actually easy to come up with a really solid number for a catless car vs. stock one. They have a massive amount of data to base their models on.
I'll also point out (again) that the EPA has a BUNCH of real car people. There has been a competitor at the challenge that was part of the EPA management (and the car *almost* had an EPA sticker put on it, but cooler heads prevailed). There are drag racers, track people, autocrossers, etc. They even used to have an annual car show. They, too, have modified cars.
For the most part, they are not there for an agenda, they are there to make your life better by having cleaner air and water. Can they do more for planes, mowers, and ships? Sure- and they actually know that, too. But cars are a really high contributor to air quality, so that's one of the bigger targets. Mind you, these days, you will find more OEM's working WITH the EPA and CARB than fighting them. It's a heck of a lot easier than panicking after you lose another court case. And cheaper.
In reply to alfadriver :
It always amuses me how some people can get uptight over what the government says you can and can't do with cars that you drive on government roads, but are okay with, say, the NHRA telling you what you can and can't do with your car when you enter a race.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
The irony....
Guys, I think we're getting in our feelings a bit. The EPA goes after all companies that violate environmental regulations. The "private jet" argument is a red herring since the EPA regulates the aviation industry too. If the argument is about needing stricter legislation on that front then fair enough. If it's about moral responsibility of the ultra wealthy, that's also valid. But the company did something illegal and now they need to pay. The 2.9 million fine is likely commensurate with what the company can afford. Government agencies' fines aren't designed to bankrupt a company just like a speeding ticket is unlikely to drain your bank account.
alfadriver said:In reply to 4cylndrfury :
Do you actually think China has no air quality laws? You seem to think they don't.
In fact, they have really tightened their laws really quickly in the last 5 years of my career. So much so that one of their requirements had become the toughest emissions test on the entire planet.
Come talk to me when the CCP stops measuring their new coal powered plants in "New Locations Per Month". They may regulate their citizens cars (because they love to regulate their citizens), but they care nearly zero for their global ecological impact.
Talk to me about the impact their automotive standards are having in relation to the insanely toxic runoff from lithium and other mineral refining they do to make wildly affordable electric cars and phones and earbuds.
Environmental standards for car exhaust is swatting a Lazer-eyed nuclear pterodactyl with one of those sticky stretch hands you win at the carnival
In reply to 4cylndrfury :
The only reason I just bring up the auto rules is that I actually worked with them. Because they have pretty strict rules, I do assume that they have rules for the coal plants, too. Heck, they have the largest wind farm in the world as well as the largest solar farm in the world to take some impact off of coal.
Is it as good as the US? No, but it's not nothing like you imply.
And how is that relevant to the US EPA enforcing the laws that congress told them to make and enforce? The US has been in the lead for the environment since the start, so having the world be behind our emissions has been a thing for 50 years. It just is the way it is.
As for cars, I'm sure you feel that they don't matter, but given that the current emission in the US is near 99.9% of the engine out emissions, they are very, very, very not pointless. If you really think it is, then come up with facts, and tell the EPA.
Still, everything has emissions standards. Factories, ships, trucks, trains, cars, mowers, snow blowers, etc. It's very much not just cars that have requirements. Even if you feel that's not true.
In reply to RaabTheSaab :
It's not only a red herring, it's false equivalency. There's this sense that "because there are worse offenders, no regulations should apply to me" and that "the justice system should only prosecute the most flagrant offenses."
While certainly discretion does need to be exercised by prosecution teams and by legislators themselves, when it comes to a topic such as emissions this is very much a tragedy of the commons situation. Cumulative effects do exist, and probably it's not a great idea to build a company based on defying federal emissions laws.
I'm all for race cars and for tuning and having fun with vehicles, but I won't pretend that on a large scale our hobby is harmless.
Did you guys read the assertions being made by Cobb to the media?
https://www.aol.com/finance/cobb-tuning-hit-2-9-181300921.html?guccounter=1
Cobb is claiming they started their Green Speed initiative program prior to the EPA intervening in 2022. It could of course be a nonsense PR spin to reduce the damage to the company, but if true, it's a shame that such a crippling fine will be imposed on a company that worked to bring themselves into compliance prior to being asked to by the EPA.
While I understand the clean air and water argument and largely agree with it, there are some agencies and states that have taken it too far- my state (Colorado) being one of them. We've adopted CARB standards in the metro areas, forcing consumers to purchase only CARB certified catalytic converters for that specific vehicle application. The crux of the whole thing is that on vehicles outside of their first few years of service, we already have mandatory dyno based sniffer tests every 1-2 years (depending on vehicle age).
Translation: it doesn't matter if your vehicle still passes emissions standards, if your catalytic converter isn't OEM or CARB certified, it's an automatic visible failure per our state legislature. I can see the argument now: "well, don't remove your emissions equipment", which I suppose could be a valid argument, but we're now among the highest states in the nation for motor vehicle theft and catalytic converter theft- with many victims having their OEM cats stolen while parked on the street, on older vehicles that only have liability insurance coverage. Or if your vehicle fails emissions due to a faulty cat, you're in a real pickle if you don't have large sums of cash sitting around for a pricey OEM cat. I watched a co-worker of mine literally go through this last summer when the cat was stolen off of his wife's Prius while parked outside and every exhaust shop in the area refused to weld in a non-OEM cat- feel free to start Googling how much they sell for $$$$.
A few short years ago, this problem was easy to solve- plenty of affordable 49 state legal cats for sale on sites like Rock Auto that pass emissions testing with ease. Now Rock Auto won't even send you a cat if you live in a CARB state, even though the Federally certified cats these companies have been selling for years all cleaned the air as intended. Some companies are trying to make more CARB legal replacements at least for some makes and models (hopefully yours is included), but they're typically 3-4 times the cost of the previously legal 49 state replacements, that still passed actual emissions testing requirements, at least in my area (ask me how I know!).
I'm all for not having to inhale rolling coal fumes with the top down on a date night with my wife, but I vehemently disagree with some of the ridiculous CARB based regulations forcing aftermarket companies to jump through countless hoops to certify a product, which in turn, passes the cost of certification onto the customer, when the "lesser" product, costing a fraction of what the CARB product costs, still results in actually being able to pass at local emissions testing stations.
There's balance to just about everything in life, and yes, there is such a thing as government overreach. I say that as someone who has spent the vast majority of my life working for either the Federal or local government. If you don't believe some of your legislators have unreasonable agendas that they're willing to impose without taking opposing points of view into account, well, I have some oceanfront property in Arizona that I would love to sell you.
Roninsoldier83 gets it☝️
IIRC if you modify the ECU in any way ( tuned ) , 2 things get modified...The CVN and the checksum. Also the Cal ID has to match as well.
Lots of folks in Cali are facing this. Even when flashing the ecu back to stock with the stock ROM, cal ID and CVN, some dont pass if the checksum doesnt match.
I think many states do check the CVN and check sum during emissions. Many states also have these numbers in their databases attached to the VIN...and sometimes they are wrong esp if the manufacturer came out with several fixes for drivability issues creating several ROMS.
My 2 c is if you want a registerable driver, buy an older car that isn't subject to emissions. For a track only car...who cares?
Do most states go by the 25 year old car rule, after which emissions no longer apply? Georgia does Doubtful if Cali does
<Eats popcorn as he installs Edelbrock carb on his 1968 Ford 302>
roninsoldier83 said:Did you guys read the assertions being made by Cobb to the media?
https://www.aol.com/finance/cobb-tuning-hit-2-9-181300921.html?guccounter=1
Cobb is claiming they started their Green Speed initiative program prior to the EPA intervening in 2022. It could of course be a nonsense PR spin to reduce the damage to the company, but if true, it's a shame that such a crippling fine will be imposed on a company that worked to bring themselves into compliance prior to being asked to by the EPA.
The fact that they began the Green Speed initiative in the first place indicates they knew their products were non-compliant and could be used for illegal things. In 2022, they looked around at similar companies being fined and realized they could suffer similar penalties, so they made some amount of effort to change course. That tells me that fines like these are pretty effective deterrents that have a cumulative impact outside of just the entities being fined. They're changing things industry wide. But if you've already fined similar entities (Hondata, HPTuners, Bully Dog, etc) then you've got to apply the penalties consistently.
For what it's worth, and Keith may be able to confirm, but I'm fairly certain that aftermarket companies still have certification processes that are less rigorous than OEMs when it comes to the breadth of what they have to certify or warranty. So, while it takes significant money and effort to design and certify emissions compliant powertrain upgrades, these companies aren't spending anywhere near the amount that OEMs are. My employer spends well into 6 figures per day on emissions development work just at my facility, and that doesn't include engineer or manager salaries.
In reply to roninsoldier83 :
I'm sure you know this, but for everyone else reading... Brand new to 7 years old, no emissions testing. 7-12 years old, OBD2 scan only. 12+ years old, run it on the dyno rollers.
Colorado is pretty lax IMO, most of my cars have been modified to some degree and I've never had an issue passing emissions here. They've never given me a hard time with whatever exhaust, intake, turbo's, tune, etc, etc I've had on my cars. All my cars have had cats and have passed with no issues.
I just don't see the problem here, if you want to take the cat, or other emissions equipment off your street car, then you're breaking the law and also not really getting much performance benefit. And even if you do make another 7-10hp, does that really matter? Are you going to get to the store any faster? For a track car, it doesn't matter, so you're free to do whatever you want.
If you're a company, you can't sell emissions deleting equipment and it's been that way for decades upon decades. Is it really a surprise that they're finally getting shut down?
Cobb was selling a tool that allowed you to delete emissions equipment, like the rear O2 sensors. That's illegal and nobody should be surprised that they got in trouble. I've used the Cobb on several of my cars, including my current 996, they're able to still make and sell their Accessport, so what's the problem?
In reply to roninsoldier83 :
Assuming that you are not in California- which it seems that you are not- the issue you have with the standard you are being asked to pass is a state choice. Each state is allowed to choose between the EPA and CARB standards. If you don't like that choice, take it up with your state.
If the "lesser" parts are capable of actually passing the local requirements (which are actually California requirements)- they would be sold as 50 state. The process both the cheap and expensive cat systems go through is identical- it's just a test on a car on an emissions test. And the testing IS considerably easier than what OEMs do- the testing is generally on a surrogate car and then applied to everything. Again- exactly the same testing. So the difference is pretty much the same difference that OEMs face- the cost of the metals on the catalyst. And repeating my first point, the requirement that you replace with a CA system is totally on your state. (BTW, given that there are quite a few states that use CARB rules, it's better to separate CA and Federal instead of 49 state, since it's less than 45).
The tampering laws that cover replacement rules as well have been around since the early 70's. And those rules are why the first test is visual. The emissions testing that your car does is not anything like what the aftermarket does let alone the OEMs do- so it's hardly representative of pass or fail.
Funny that we cover this every single time something like this happens.
Milburn Emery said:IIRC if you modify the ECU in any way ( tuned ) , 2 things get modified...The CVN and the checksum. Also the Cal ID has to match as well.
Lots of folks in Cali are facing this. Even when flashing the ecu back to stock with the stock ROM, cal ID and CVN, some dont pass if the checksum doesnt match.
I think many states do check the CVN and check sum during emissions. Many states also have these numbers in their databases attached to the VIN...and sometimes they are wrong esp if the manufacturer came out with several fixes for drivability issues creating several ROMS.
My 2 c is if you want a registerable driver, buy an older car that isn't subject to emissions. For a track only car...who cares?
Do most states go by the 25 year old car rule, after which emissions no longer apply? Georgia does Doubtful if Cali does
Here in OK, no emissions testing or yearly safety inspections...........regardless of age.
I guess it's a good time to remind people that the motorsports enforcement that we are facing now is pretty much thanks to the brodozers and VW.
Up until then, for real motorsports mods, the EPA and CARB generally looked the other way because they were realistic about the numbers.
Then other groups got into the action- and the public noted the coal rolling. Complaints rolled in, as well as lawsuits demanding that the EPA and CARB enforce their rules. And VW.... That blew up for the OEMs on top of that.
So they were cornered into forcing companies to comply based on the public complaints, lawsuits, and blatant cheaters.
Mr_Asa said:z31maniac said:In reply to Mr_Asa :
The point I read on another story was that it seems silly for the EPA to go after the 0.02% of cars with an Accessport vs the number of poorly maintained jalopies that are likely putting our far more emissions. And there are likely far of those jalopies.
They aren't going after the cars, they are going after the companies actively breaking the law.
Maybe the laws are stupid to begin with as 4cylndrfury points out in the post below yours.
DirtyBird222 said:Mr_Asa said:z31maniac said:In reply to Mr_Asa :
The point I read on another story was that it seems silly for the EPA to go after the 0.02% of cars with an Accessport vs the number of poorly maintained jalopies that are likely putting our far more emissions. And there are likely far of those jalopies.
They aren't going after the cars, they are going after the companies actively breaking the law.
Maybe the laws are stupid to begin with as 4cylndrfury points out in the post below yours.
How so? The rules restrict the EPA to only deal with interstate commerce, which is something the federal government can do. They don't allow the EPA to go after individuals.
It's that simple. How is that stupid?
They may not "go after individuals"...but if you have fun modding your car, a hobby most every person on this forum enjoys, and you engage in the dastardly, baby-seal killing evil that is ECU tuning, then our benevolent governing overlords will refuse to register your car if you live in an area where an inspection is part of that process. EPA or CARB rules are often a major component of said inspections. And each state has an EPA service that is usually the organization conducting the inspection.
So, the process is the punishment. Don't pass inspection? No tags for you. Driving on expired tags? Now you can't even have a license. Drive without a license long enough, the penalties go up from there.
This is my beef. My hypothetical cat-deleted 4 banger isn't doing nearly the damage to the air quality that other major pollution drivers do. And when those polluters get "caught", they get wrist slapped...and then leave the press conference to go play golf with their governing overlords.
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