COBB gets $2.9 million fine from EPA for the AccessPort

4cylndrfury said:

They may not "go after individuals...but if you have fun modding your car, a hobby most every person on this forum enjoys, then our benevolent governing overlords will refuse to register your car if you live in an area where an inspection is part of that process. EPA or CARB rules are often a major component of said inspections. And each state has an EPA service.

So, the process is the punishment. Don't pass inspection? No tags for you. Driving on expired tags? Now you can't even have a license. Drive without a license long enough, the penalties go up from there.

This is my beef. My hypothetical cat-deleted 4 banger isn't doing nearly the damage to the air quality that other major pollution drivers do. And when those polluters get "caught", they get wrist slapped...and then leave the press conference to go play golf with their governing overlords.

Again

Its not your catless 4-banger.  It is everyone that does it.

And again

They dont get to discriminate on who gets checked or not.

You want someone to pay heftier fines, go lobby for it.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to alfadriver :

It always amuses me how some people can get uptight over what the government says you can and can't do with cars that you drive on government roads, but are okay with, say, the NHRA telling you what you can and can't do with your car when you enter a race.

Point of order on this: Most of us have to drive on government roads. Nobody has to enter an NHRA race. So yeah, folks are going to get more uptight about things they have no choice about.

As long as no one takes my methanol away, I'm good. 

My biggest complaint is they seem to be going after things that can merely potentially be used to violate emissions, not actual emissions violations. They also seem to have a really stupid policy that there is no path for a previously emissions controlled vehicle to be converted to a non-road car where you can tune. Like any tool there are legit uses of tuning equipment that are or should not be controlled. There are even legit uses for tuning equipment on road going cars that would result in less net emissions.

I wish we could just get some common sense exemptions. Like if you don't have a plate for a car it can be considered a non-road car. Maybe some hoops to jump through and brand the title if needed. Or like my state does with antique plates- after 25 years you can agree to limited use in exchange for no emissions testing. The percentage of cars and vehicle miles on these cars are so low that is shouldn't be a big deal.

I'm just really concerned what it will do to the racing scene long term, or just keeping classic cars on the road.

Coniglio Rampante said:

I remember the air quality in Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston and other places 40 and 50 years ago.  EPA rules took the air quality in those places from looking like what you see in China today to actually having clear skies.  It also happened while there was a massive increase in annual miles driven in the U.S.  In the grand scheme of things, the difference happened fairly quickly.

And individual vehicles still pollute plenty.  I've brought this up before but I have a nice view of the NYC skyline (well Brooklyn AND the skyline, I guess) near my house.  In the summer of 2020, when so few cars were on the road, the view was markedly clearer. 

In reply to 4cylndrfury :

State vs. federal.  Done.  Your beef isn't with the EPA.  

But I'm not sure how refusing to tag your car is not just a slap on the wrist.  You can undo it, and get your tag.  Pretty  minor- you are not actually paying the state anything in a fine (unless you drive you tagless car and get caught).

And it's pretty funny how a multi billion dollar fine to VW is a slap on the wrist.

BTW, the EPA is MANDATED to not ruin a company unless they are doing really bad things, especially repeated.  They are required to include economics in their decisions.  

theruleslawyer said:

My biggest complaint is they seem to be going after things that can merely potentially be used to violate emissions, not actual emissions violations. They also seem to have a really stupid policy that there is no path for a previously emissions controlled vehicle to be converted to a non-road car where you can tune. Like any tool there are legit uses of tuning equipment that are or should not be controlled. There are even legit uses for tuning equipment on road going cars that would result in less net emissions.

I wish we could just get some common sense exemptions. Like if you don't have a plate for a car it can be considered a non-road car. Maybe some hoops to jump through and brand the title if needed. Or like my state does with antique plates- after 25 years you can agree to limited use in exchange for no emissions testing. The percentage of cars and vehicle miles on these cars are so low that is shouldn't be a big deal.

I'm just really concerned what it will do to the racing scene long term, or just keeping classic cars on the road.

Once again, I will repeat this....

motorsports mods were overlooked even though they have technically been illegal for a long time.  Until the brodozers force their hands.  Can we get over that?

Mr_Asa said:

4cylndrfury said:

They may not "go after individuals...but if you have fun modding your car, a hobby most every person on this forum enjoys, then our benevolent governing overlords will refuse to register your car if you live in an area where an inspection is part of that process. EPA or CARB rules are often a major component of said inspections. And each state has an EPA service.

So, the process is the punishment. Don't pass inspection? No tags for you. Driving on expired tags? Now you can't even have a license. Drive without a license long enough, the penalties go up from there.

This is my beef. My hypothetical cat-deleted 4 banger isn't doing nearly the damage to the air quality that other major pollution drivers do. And when those polluters get "caught", they get wrist slapped...and then leave the press conference to go play golf with their governing overlords.

...Its not your catless 4-banger.  It is everyone that does it...

You want someone to pay heftier fines, go lobby for it.

55billion dollar Norfolk Southern ravaged an entire Midwestern town, and the EPA helped make the decision to burn a zillion gallons of death juice...and they may be looking at a few hundred million in penalties and a shockingly low percentage of that goes to the citizens. Much of that goes to the EPA to fund cleanup, or to the Fed Transportation Agency to "improve railroads"

No one was ever prosecuted for the Deepwater Horizon spill...let that sink in 

The government isn't here to protect you. They barely pretend to care about you until there comes a time that they can collect your revenue.

Who do I lobby to? What address do I put on my letter?

alfadriver said:

Once again, I will repeat this....

motorsports mods were overlooked even though they have technically been illegal for a long time.  Until the brodozers force their hands.  Can we get over that?

No, because it is a legit complaint. And also you're wrong. Well not completely right. There are non-road motorsports cars that were not emissions controlled. Its possible to currently import these cars today, legally. Previously it was possible to change a street vehicle into a non-road competition vehicle. In 2016 the EPA changed their interpretation. This happens all the time with administrative law and changes do not mean it was 'illegal' prior to 2016, just ignored.

Now for road cars that were tuned, yah those have been illegal and just ignored. Companies that were selling 'for offroad use only' equipment with a wink and nod were pretty much ignored. Now they are being asked to prove legit off road use. Still there are legit uses now and previously that aren't really being addressed.

If the reports were "Starbucks got fined for breaking the law" People here would be posting "serves them right, they knew the law and broke it". 

Why is this different? Because cars are involved?

The problem, as theruleslawyer says, is that there's no mechanism for a street car to become a race car and thus exempt from emissions reg. That was the intent of the RPM Act, which got bogged down.

If something like the RPM Act gets passed, you would be able to turn your street car into a race car. But it would be a one-way trip - you'd never be able to drive it on the street again. It's not a route to run a catless Subaru at track days and drive it home. I think it would be a good idea to get that legislation, hopefully SEMA will take another run at it.

4cylndrfury said:

They may not "go after individuals"...but if you have fun modding your car, a hobby most every person on this forum enjoys, and you engage in the dastardly, baby-seal killing evil that is ECU tuning, then our benevolent governing overlords will refuse to register your car if you live in an area where an inspection is part of that process. EPA or CARB rules are often a major component of said inspections. And each state has an EPA service that is usually the organization conducting the inspection.

So, the process is the punishment. Don't pass inspection? No tags for you. Driving on expired tags? Now you can't even have a license. Drive without a license long enough, the penalties go up from there.

This is my beef. My hypothetical cat-deleted 4 banger isn't doing nearly the damage to the air quality that other major pollution drivers do. And when those polluters get "caught", they get wrist slapped...and then leave the press conference to go play golf with their governing overlords.

It's possible to tune an ECU without increasing emissions and to prove it. BTDT. Heck, I've even got a CARB legal tune on a 24 year old Jeep. 

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to alfadriver :

It always amuses me how some people can get uptight over what the government says you can and can't do with cars that you drive on government roads, but are okay with, say, the NHRA telling you what you can and can't do with your car when you enter a race.

They aren't government roads, they are public roads, paid for by citizens tax dollars. If I took a bunch of money from you and built a clubhouse its not MY clubhouse its yours.

Opti said:

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to alfadriver :

It always amuses me how some people can get uptight over what the government says you can and can't do with cars that you drive on government roads, but are okay with, say, the NHRA telling you what you can and can't do with your car when you enter a race.

They aren't government roads, they are public roads, paid for by citizens tax dollars. If I took a bunch of money from you and built a clubhouse its not MY clubhouse its yours.

By your logic, the government is also ours.  So if we own both what does it matter whether we say its the govts or ours?

4cylndrfury said:

In reply to Mr_Asa :

Does the government do what you tell them to do, or do you do what the government tells you to do?

The people said "We want clean air and water."

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

4cylndrfury said:

In reply to Mr_Asa :

Does the government do what you tell them to do, or do you do what the government tells you to do?

The people said "We want clean air and water."

And the best way to get there is to needle the everyday driver? Or is that just the easiest way to say you did something, justifying your existence, and the astronomical federal budget that makes it possible?

When you have an excess of solution, it will go out of its way to find problems to justify itself.

alfadriver said:

I guess it's a good time to remind people that the motorsports enforcement that we are facing now is pretty much thanks to the brodozers and VW.  

Up until then, for real motorsports mods, the EPA and CARB generally looked the other way because they were realistic about the numbers.  

Then other groups got into the action- and the public noted the coal rolling.  Complaints rolled in, as well as lawsuits demanding that the EPA and CARB enforce their rules.  And VW....  That blew up for the OEMs on top of that.

So they were cornered into forcing companies to comply based on the public complaints, lawsuits, and blatant cheaters.  

 

This is many peoples complaint. The EPA used to be reasonable and understand that they will NEVER get 100% compliance on any law, and that the best option is to get the vast majority of people to comply. You get maximum benefit with little resource outlay. Now they are going after tiny subsections of the population and even if they get 100% compliance they wont make a material difference in actual pollution all while using massive amounts of resources. PS the standard cop out of the can do more than one thing is ridiculous and a terrible argument. 

Keith Tanner said:

I'm surprised it hadn't shown up either, but I guess the news only dropped yesterday. I feel for them, they're doing the right things now but they weren't back in the day. These fines are rarely a surprise, Cobb's undoubtedly been talking with the EPA for some time. And they're not the only ones who are getting fines - this one isn't on the list yet, but you can see all the case resolutions here. For example, Kooks got hit for $300k last year. A big diesel tuner shop just got nailed with $10MM because they're unrepentant second offenders. Usually the fines are scaled to hurt but not sink the company...the first time. Also, we're in the wrong business. We should be selling truck parts!

Amounts based on the ability to pay, that sounds more like a tax than a fine. Shouldn't fines be based on the amount of damage that was done. What if a large company does less "damage" than a small company but has bigger pockets. Seems backwards if the goal is to actually clean up the air and water

Opti said:

Keith Tanner said:

I'm surprised it hadn't shown up either, but I guess the news only dropped yesterday. I feel for them, they're doing the right things now but they weren't back in the day. These fines are rarely a surprise, Cobb's undoubtedly been talking with the EPA for some time. And they're not the only ones who are getting fines - this one isn't on the list yet, but you can see all the case resolutions here. For example, Kooks got hit for $300k last year. A big diesel tuner shop just got nailed with $10MM because they're unrepentant second offenders. Usually the fines are scaled to hurt but not sink the company...the first time. Also, we're in the wrong business. We should be selling truck parts!

Amounts based on the ability to pay, that sounds more like a tax than a fine. Shouldn't fines be based on the amount of damage that was done. What if a large company does less "damage" than a small company but has bigger pockets. Seems backwards if the goal is to actually clean up the air and water

It is based on the amount of damage - read the resolutions. 

roninsoldier83 said:

Did you guys read the assertions being made by Cobb to the media? 
 

https://www.aol.com/finance/cobb-tuning-hit-2-9-181300921.html?guccounter=1

 

Cobb is claiming they started their Green Speed initiative program prior to the EPA intervening in 2022. It could of course be a nonsense PR spin to reduce the damage to the company, but if true, it's a shame that such a crippling fine will be imposed on a company that worked to bring themselves into compliance prior to being asked to by the EPA. 
 

While I understand the clean air and water argument and largely agree with it, there are some agencies and states that have taken it too far- my state (Colorado) being one of them. We've adopted CARB standards in the metro areas, forcing consumers to purchase only CARB certified catalytic converters for that specific vehicle application. The crux of the whole thing is that on vehicles outside of their first few years of service, we already have mandatory dyno based sniffer tests every 1-2 years (depending on vehicle age). 
 

Translation: it doesn't matter if your vehicle still passes emissions standards, if your catalytic converter isn't OEM or CARB certified, it's an automatic visible failure per our state legislature. I can see the argument now: "well, don't remove your emissions equipment", which I suppose could be a valid argument, but we're now among the highest states in the nation for motor vehicle theft and catalytic converter theft- with many victims having their OEM cats stolen while parked on the street, on older vehicles that only have liability insurance coverage. Or if your vehicle fails emissions due to a faulty cat, you're in a real pickle if you don't have large sums of cash sitting around for a pricey OEM cat. I watched a co-worker of mine literally go through this last summer when the cat was stolen off of his wife's Prius while parked outside and every exhaust shop in the area refused to weld in a non-OEM cat- feel free to start Googling how much they sell for $$$$. 

 

A few short years ago, this problem was easy to solve- plenty of affordable 49 state legal cats for sale on sites like Rock Auto that pass emissions testing with ease. Now Rock Auto won't even send you a cat if you live in a CARB state, even though the Federally certified cats these companies have been selling for years all cleaned the air as intended. Some companies are trying to make more CARB legal replacements at least for some makes and models (hopefully yours is included), but they're typically 3-4 times the cost of the previously legal 49 state replacements, that still passed actual emissions testing requirements, at least in my area (ask me how I know!).
 

I'm all for not having to inhale rolling coal fumes with the top down on a date night with my wife, but I vehemently disagree with some of the ridiculous CARB based regulations forcing aftermarket companies to jump through countless hoops to certify a product, which in turn, passes the cost of certification onto the customer, when the "lesser" product, costing a fraction of what the CARB product costs, still results in actually being able to pass at local emissions testing stations. 
 

There's balance to just about everything in life, and yes, there is such a thing as government overreach. I say that as someone who has spent the vast majority of my life working for either the Federal or local government. If you don't believe some of your legislators have unreasonable agendas that they're willing to impose without taking opposing points of view into account, well, I have some oceanfront property in Arizona that I would love to sell you. 

There is case law to support that if a law went unenforced for a long time it is reasonable to assume it wont be enforced. Not sure if it applies in Cobbs case but it could explain why they are taking the PR route they are.

Opti said:

alfadriver said:

I guess it's a good time to remind people that the motorsports enforcement that we are facing now is pretty much thanks to the brodozers and VW.  

Up until then, for real motorsports mods, the EPA and CARB generally looked the other way because they were realistic about the numbers.  

Then other groups got into the action- and the public noted the coal rolling.  Complaints rolled in, as well as lawsuits demanding that the EPA and CARB enforce their rules.  And VW....  That blew up for the OEMs on top of that.

So they were cornered into forcing companies to comply based on the public complaints, lawsuits, and blatant cheaters.  

 

This is many peoples complaint. The EPA used to be reasonable and understand that they will NEVER get 100% compliance on any law, and that the best option is to get the vast majority of people to comply. You get maximum benefit with little resource outlay. Now they are going after tiny subsections of the population and even if they get 100% compliance they wont make a material difference in actual pollution all while using massive amounts of resources. PS the standard cop out of the can do more than one thing is ridiculous and a terrible argument. 

Read that letter I posed earlier. It's not tiny subsections, the modifications to passenger vehicles were getting too numerous and too obvious for them to ignore. The public was complaining. The resources used are not massive. The effect was not trivial. The EPA was forced to act.  So mobile emissions were targeted as one of three areas of special attention (IIRC) a couple of years back. I don't have time right now to pull up the actual statements (I forget the exact terminology) but they're out there. 

And well, they CAN do more than one thing. And they are. You might think it's a cop out but it's provable. Just look at the EPA records. It's all public information.

Mr_Asa said:

Opti said:

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to alfadriver :

It always amuses me how some people can get uptight over what the government says you can and can't do with cars that you drive on government roads, but are okay with, say, the NHRA telling you what you can and can't do with your car when you enter a race.

They aren't government roads, they are public roads, paid for by citizens tax dollars. If I took a bunch of money from you and built a clubhouse its not MY clubhouse its yours.

By your logic, the government is also ours.  So if we own both what does it matter whether we say its the govts or ours?

For the exact reason you illustrated, you said "by your logic," no sir, its not MY logic, its a founding principle of this country, and people, like you it would appear, seem to forget that and then we find ourselves in these predicaments.

4cylndrfury said:

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

4cylndrfury said:

In reply to Mr_Asa :

Does the government do what you tell them to do, or do you do what the government tells you to do?

The people said "We want clean air and water."

And the best way to get there is to needle the everyday driver? Or is that just the easiest way to say you did something, justifying your existence, and the astronomical federal budget that makes it possible?

When you have an excess of solution, it will go out of its way to find problems to justify itself.

What everyday drivers are being "needled"?

Please explain why it is necessary to illegally modify a vehicle.

Keith Tanner said:

Opti said:

alfadriver said:

I guess it's a good time to remind people that the motorsports enforcement that we are facing now is pretty much thanks to the brodozers and VW.  

Up until then, for real motorsports mods, the EPA and CARB generally looked the other way because they were realistic about the numbers.  

Then other groups got into the action- and the public noted the coal rolling.  Complaints rolled in, as well as lawsuits demanding that the EPA and CARB enforce their rules.  And VW....  That blew up for the OEMs on top of that.

So they were cornered into forcing companies to comply based on the public complaints, lawsuits, and blatant cheaters.  

 

This is many peoples complaint. The EPA used to be reasonable and understand that they will NEVER get 100% compliance on any law, and that the best option is to get the vast majority of people to comply. You get maximum benefit with little resource outlay. Now they are going after tiny subsections of the population and even if they get 100% compliance they wont make a material difference in actual pollution all while using massive amounts of resources. PS the standard cop out of the can do more than one thing is ridiculous and a terrible argument. 

Read that letter I posed earlier. It's not tiny subsections, the modifications to passenger vehicles were getting too numerous and too obvious for them to ignore. The public was complaining. The resources used are not massive. The effect was not trivial. The EPA was forced to act.  So mobile emissions were targeted as one of three areas of special attention (IIRC) a couple of years back. I don't have time right now to pull up the actual statements (I forget the exact terminology) but they're out there. 

And well, they CAN do more than one thing. And they are. You might think it's a cop out but it's provable. Just look at the EPA records. It's all public information.

I have read the letter, or at least the study that the EPA did on deleted diesels, that the letter is referencing. We've been over this in another thread, and I don't feel like looking it up to be extra precise again so Ill tell you what I remember and I may be slightly off. The EPA says the half a mil deleted diesels are the equivalent of 8 or 9 million more vehicles on the road. We have like 300 million vehicles on the road, and transportation is only a part of our total pollution. So its a very small percentage already (that they will never completely eliminate) of only a portion of our pollution. When I read it all and looked at the numbers it seemed wasteful to me because they are fighting what I believe to be a losing battle (they already won the battle with 85 or 90% compliance) for an immaterial benefit (such a small actual reduction in emissions). You can disagree and that's fine, but I have read the documentation, and it seems stupid.

As far as doing more things than one. People seem to think resources are unlimited for our govt (which is part of the problem) but they arent, so any resources they spend chasing one company is resources that could have been spent elsewhere, and I, like many, would prefer the resources spent in places that might actually make a material difference.