Competitive Champcar/Lemons Cars

After racing karts at a decently high level for about 5 years and having some race experience in the old Skip Barber Formula series, I am looking to make the move into racing cars in the near future. Running through the costs for something like a Spec Racer Ford was a bit daunting, but some of my fellow racing buddies have expressed interest in fielding a Champcar/Lemons car and when spread out, it’s much more palatable. I know I should try to rent a seat before jumping into things, but right now I’m just curious as to what is considered competitive. A couple cheap Chevy Cobalts around me have got me thinking that they could do well. A super common engine with a seemingly decent and light chassis. What does the hive say?

Having run Integras for several years, I find it hard to imagine anything better.  Unless you want to be fast overall. 
A well prepped and driven Integra will compete for class wins every day.

EcoTecs have been pretty reliable in lemons. I'm not sure an ecotec car has ever taken an overall though. 

^ Ecotecs have won overall, but I'm not sure if they have in a Cobalt.

I have no racing experience with a Cobalt, but to me, theoretically it seems like a decent option. You can get good power out of the 2.4L (400 VPi). The Cobalt SS (turbo) was a giant killer, so the chassis must be able to handle and there are 0 point performance parts available (eg. springs/shocks). Fuel tank size seems to be 13-14 gal. I believe (but have not confirmed 100%) you could swap the LSD transaxle from the SS (25 points). I see LNF (turbo) era LSDs on car-part, but they're not cheap. The LSJ (supercharged) era had LSDs too and seem to be more reasonably priced. I'd imagine it is fairly simple to swap over the 4-piston calipers from the turbo SS.

Some friends of mine scored a win in an E30.

You almost HAVE to have something that runs C class.  Lexus SC300’s seem to be a pretty good way to go right now.

I’ve been dailying a Solstice with the 2.4L Ecotec that I threw a turbo on and I’ve been more than pleased with the engine, another reason I like the idea of the Cobalt. And close to 200hp should be relatively easy without forced induction with some swapping of factory parts, just like how there are plenty of upgraded oem suspension parts available. 

I know the easy button would be an E30 or E36, but the budget gets raised a good bit there. I had forgotten about the Integra, I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen one in the wild, surprisingly. 

I'm not much of a technical guy, so I won't dive deep into mechanical stuff, but I'm now in my 7th season of running LeMons, all with the same team...2017 Champions by the way...hell yeah!!!  First thing I'd ask you is what are your goals?  If you want to take overall win, that would be an extremely tall order right out of the box.  It's very competitive at the pointy end of the field.  In the right hands, our '89 Civic hatch (or whatever year it is) is one of the fastest cars on the track.  Sometimes it's THE fastest car on the track.  It's got a lot of goodies in it to be sure, and our team captain is a Honda wizard.  But my point is that even with that car and some very fast and clean drivers, we have yet to take overall win.  You need a super fast car, fast pit stops, no penalties, no mechanical issues.  To start, I'd suggest finding a car that you can build to be reliable lap after lap after lap.  Find drivers who will not drive as if F1 or IMSA scouts were watching them.  We're here to compete, but we're here to have fun and be clean.  You can't win races sitting in the penalty box...or in the garage broken/wrecked.  Once you get the car, sort out growing pains for it and sort out driver growing pains.  From there, if you have goals to be climb the standings ladder, go for it.  Or maybe your goal is IOE, or C class, or B class.  We've done all of those, and they're all just as fun.  And that's what I'd stress most...fun.  That's what it's all about.  LeMons is the greatest bunch of men and women you'll find anywhere in racing.  I joined our team in 2012, and from the first race I ran to where we are now, we've come an incredibly far way in being competitive.  We now have driver shifts mapped out down to the minute, well organized pit stops, etc...  But despite that, we never loose sight of the fact that we're here to have a great time. 

All kinds of cars can be competitive.  We won C class in a '94 Chevy S10 that literally had a boat body stuck onto it.  Our Civic, as mentioned above, is always in contention for a race win.  We have a Toyota Cressida that's a top 10 contender.  I know there are a few Cobalts that run in our area, from my memory they're decent, but not overall win competitive. 

The car is about 10% of the equation.  The other 90% is organization, skill, experience....

There have been teams with bone-stock Toyota tercels that  have broken into the top 20 in the standings.  

Race what you want, race what you're familiar with and comfortable working on and, most importantly, what you enjoy spending 2 hours behind the wheel of. 

(And 12 hours underneath of, on a piece of cardboard, covered in gear oil and being bitten by fire ants.)

There was an article recently about the top 10 Lemans cars.  IIRC, #2 on that was the Alfa Milano.  

In reply to Klayfish :

I love to hear about the organization and effort involved in a successful team (as there should be). From the couple Lemons races I’ve spectated at, the lack of seriousness was a bit off putting. I think there is more to it than what I was observing. At this point I really don’t know exactly what I’m looking for, but I’m sure I’ll figure that out before too long. Thanks for your input. 

EDT said:

In reply to Klayfish :

I love to hear about the organization and effort involved in a successful team (as there should be). From the couple Lemons races I’ve spectated at, the lack of seriousness was a bit off putting. I think there is more to it than what I was observing. At this point I really don’t know exactly what I’m looking for, but I’m sure I’ll figure that out before too long. Thanks for your input. 

LeMons is very much a party where there so happens to be racing going on, whereas champcar is more of a "proper" low budget endurance series. If you want a semi serious race while still having fun, I think champcar is the way to go. 

Chump/champ is a bit different than Lemons.  Champ sees quite a bit faster cars generally speaking looking at laps times.  The rule set between the two series would make it difficult to be competitive in both. 

I would say define your goals. Fun, class win, overall win? Personally I'm there to have fun and be as quick as I can while in the car.  However number #1 rule is to bring back the car in 1 piece.  

In my perspective as far as champ goes. It come down to a car/driver combo that can consistently run top 10 laps times and get as close to 2 hour stints on fuel since a driver change is required every two hours.  That and staying out on the track and all the afformentioned prep and organization.

The team I rent a seat from at their last race ran top 5 lap times, had no real mechanical issues or unscheduled pits but the car runs out of fuel at an hour and a half or so. Took their class win but ended up mid teens overall. 

The hot ticket car at least in the southeast seems like a Lexus sc300.  I have a couple mental build of a 80's thunderbird or gbody as well as a cutup explorer or AMC Pacer. These builds all center around their 20+ gallon gas tanks. 

Gaunt596 said:

EDT said:

In reply to Klayfish :

I love to hear about the organization and effort involved in a successful team (as there should be). From the couple Lemons races I’ve spectated at, the lack of seriousness was a bit off putting. I think there is more to it than what I was observing. At this point I really don’t know exactly what I’m looking for, but I’m sure I’ll figure that out before too long. Thanks for your input. 

LeMons is very much a party where there so happens to be racing going on, whereas champcar is more of a "proper" low budget endurance series. If you want a semi serious race while still having fun, I think champcar is the way to go. 

Have you run LeMons?  I'd have to guess you haven't.  I haven't run Chump, so I can't speak from first hand experience, but from what I hear about it, I have zero interest.  Yes, we have a blast in LeMons, but not sure why that's a bad thing??  At the same time, I can tell you from having run around 25-30 races that it's absolutely a "proper" low budget endurance series.  Get on the race track with 90 other cars and tell me how much of a party it is...the racing on track is quite intense.  The party happens when the track goes cold.  Even if the lap times aren't as quick as a Chump car, we put themes on our cars and don't take ourselves as seriously, that doesn't mean the racing is less serious or competitive.  That's like saying Spec Miata is a bunch of clowns because they go slower than IMSA.

I totally agree with Greg.  The goal, at least for me, is to turn good lap times but bring the car home in one piece.  When I'm on track, I love dicing it up in traffic, it's a E36 M3 load of fun.  But no, I won't stick my nose where it may not belong...again, we're not here to get recruited by F1 or NASCAR.  If I do something dumb and wreck the car, I've ruined everyones' weekend.  Not cool. 

EDT, don't be offput by the fun and games you see going on.  Yes, there are some teams here and there that are there more for the night parties, and their performance usually shows on the track.  If you want to compete, build a solid car and get out there on the racetrack.  I'll guarantee you that you'll find out that the racing is real.  You'll also find a great group of people who will bend over backwards to help you if your car breaks...not sure if that happens in Chump, but in LeMons I can't tell you how many times you see people from other teams helping each other wrench, fix, weld, whatever...and they don't even know each other but just want to help.

Do NOT run a Toyota with a 5SFE engine...trust me.

(Actually, with a baffled pan and a proper rebuild it might not be a bad engine)

My recommendation is to come hang out at a few races to see for yourself.

I haven’t raced in Champcar but I’ve crewed and watched. I’ll be at Watkins Glen at the end of May dumping fuel for Logdog. This will be my third year and I’m excited even though I won’t be driving. These races are a great time no matter what you’re doing.

Right now fuel capacity can be a factor in Champcar since the rules only let you use the oem tank or fuel cell limited to +2 gallons from stock. Stints are limited to 2hrs so a big part of race strategy depends on your ability to go the full 2 hours on fuel. This is a daily topic of discussion for some on the Champ forum. Sometimes I go read the drama there just for fun when I’m bored.

The fast cars with good fuel capacity seem to be the Lexus SC and BMWs. It seems like, at least the races I’ve seen, there is a performance gap between the well developed teams that have a chance to run at the front and the rest of the teams that run mid-pack, racing each other. Fast cars I’ve seen have been v6 swapped MR2, a wicked Honda, turbo Saabs, 3000GT/Stealth, a V6 powered RX7, the Team Sahlens RX7s, and of course the well developed BMWs.

I don’t think the classes actually mean much in Champcar.  

For reference, my team races a B20 swapped Civic with average drivers with 2 solid mid pack finishes so far. The fast Civic at Watkins Glen was a K swapped beast with wider wheels, and aero. I don’t think they were quite on the pace of the race leaders.

All that being said, the fast winning cars are teams with years of Champcar experience and incredible amounts of time into developing their cars.

edit: for clarity

EDT said:

I know the easy button would be an E30 or E36, but the budget gets raised a good bit there.

E36 is the easy button (so is E46 but the buy in is still a little more there). E30's have certainly gone up in price, but clapped out E36's can be found cheap. Spare engine's for E36's are still very plentiful and cheap.

I have to agree with a few posters on having a reasonably  quick car, that's reliable and or easy to fix, gets good mpgs or have a big cell, and have drivers who drive smart.  I have seen teams that had a car that was at least 10 seconds a lap slower then the top 5 cars run as high as second overall and finish an easy top 10. They did this so often that the judges now place the car in class A.  When first raced it was in class C, later moved to B and after two class wins placed in A. This was done based on the performance not of the car but the drivers!

I've raced in both, and both have their advantages and disadvantages I guess. LeMons as mentioned seems to be like a big party where there is some level of competitive racing going on with half the field, and the other half of the field are either in things that are terrifying to be near on track, or that are rolling roadblocks. It's kind of fun in that respect, the giant speed differentials out there, but can also get frustrating to some degree. If you're someone who loves doing themes, decorations, dressing up, and generally being goofy, you'll love LeMons. 

If you are someone who just wants to race and not do all the "stuff on the side," Chump/champ is probably more for you. Still some crazy cars out there, still some good speed differentials that can make things interesting, but you're unlikely to get Speedycop driving a Huey helicopter on the track or a pop-up camper, lol. 

We've mostly gone toward occasional Chump/champ races since I guess the guys on our team just aren't that goofy (neither are we ultra-serious "gotta win win win" types, but we do like competitive racing without having to buy cigars and booze for Judge Phil lol). And I'm saying that with all the love of a team (us) who had a giant painting of Judge Phil on the hood of our e30, so.....

Also depends on the tracks you want to run (they don't both run all the same tracks), and what the other guys on the team want to do, of course. In LeMons you can "win" by having a crazy car, even if it's terrible on the track. In Chump, you pretty much win by...driving faster for the entier time than everyone else, and that's all ;)

There's also AER in the budget-enduro scene. Don't know much about it, but I hear it's more like bracket racing of sorts, so that's another option that could even the field.

As to car, e30/e36 may not win, but will be competitive and are typically cheap/easy to work on, reliable, and RWD fun. i think our e30 has finished every race entered other than one where it met a wall backwards.....e36s are dirt cheap to find on CL these days and have good aftermarket support. not sure what the penalty points look like for it these days - I haven't done a race in 2 years since all my money gets blown on stage rally entry......

In reply to Snrub : To me it seems if you are going to race at the front of the pack it’s not so much the car as the crew chief.  

You need the guy who knows where to find a good candidate cheap. Knows that the motor mounts from the 07 model are better than the later ones including modern replacements. Or whatever strengths and weakness that series has.  Understands What real weakness of the car is but here’s how you can get it to last the whole race.  

What’s good enough for another race or two and what will need replacement.  Knows all the short cuts to work quickly without skipping important steps.  

That the 2011 heads have enough metal in them to port, while they visually will pass inspection if smeared with enough dirt and grease.  ( creative cheater  that doesn’t get caught ).  The aftermarket plug wires are cheaper and actually better but you should always replace these bolts every time you work on them.  

Understands drivers well enough to help each one achieve his full potential without hurting the car

Can organize pit crew and mechanics so pit stops are efficient and get everything done 

In other words nearly any brand can be a potential winner given the right guy.  

Without that guy all those lessons need to be learned on the racetrack. 

Fuel tank size is super important in champcar right now.

I wouldn't he looking at any car that couldn't go 2 hours on fuel.  200 hp is probably about 9 gallons per hour.   So, 13 to 14 gallons is a big no go...

In reply to EDT :

If I was going chumpcar racing I’d like a nice reliable car  that made about 300 horsepower, and had a 24 gallon fuel tank. ( with the optional  fuel cell you could have 26 gallons). 

It would be good if it handled like a Miata. Had great big brakes front and rear. Plus it could be purchased really,  really, cheap. 

Answer?  A Jaguar 4.0 XJS 

sure few had the optional manual transmission  but a T56 is a really easy transmission to adapt. 

If you want to race and not have to worry about putting 2 wheels off road or spinning and have to go see the judges, then race in Champ. 

We raced in LeMons for 3 years til we got tired of the drama. We wanted to race, not play Halloween and receive penalty laps because a judge thought we were cheating. 

What car to race? Miata. E-30. Integra.

Or conversely, if you want to race and have fun, and not worry as much about someone overdriving their car and collecting you in the process,  because they seem to think the F1 scouts are in the stands of a crap can race, you might want to avoid AER and be a bit leery of certain regions of champcar.  

sergio said:

If you want to race and not have to worry about putting 2 wheels off road or spinning and have to go see the judges, then race in Champ.

I 100% agree .We got sidelined for 4 hours after a 3 seperate drivers had relatively minor incidents. Two had 2 offs and one got punted by a Crown Vic that ran out of brakes.

I get the idea but sitting around waiting to get back on track after prepping the car, towing, hotels etc kinda sucks.