Convince me: PAX

Being in GS you have the second highest pax multiplier, I'd think you'd be pretty happy about that, HS and ES seem to be some of the fastest pax classes from my experience. It's just a tool to help gauge yourself against others, it's not going to very accurate and sometimes it's more accurate than others. You end up with the same issue with a class. I run CS wiht a 250Z and regularly get donkey punched by the new ND miata, the older NC miata and the toyobaru twins (now only the toyota with the TRD suspension (don't ask me why they allow that)). I have more power and bigger brakes than they do but they all have adjustable camber and weight a thousand lbs less. I'm competing against me. Don't get wrapped up int he competition, just have fun and focus on improving you.

RedGT wrote: If you are multiple seconds behind someone, either it's the driver or the car is not prepped close to the limit of the class. The latter is a HUGE prerequesite for PAX coming even close to making sense.

I disagree. A car that is uncompetitive and/or under/un-prepared for a given class, will generally speaking fare no better against the well prepped/competitive cars in it's class than it will be in PAX against similarly well prepped/compeitive cars from other classes. It's all on the same scale of relativity, so you're basically just saying that it doesn't make sense either way to bring a car that would not be competitive in it's class.

Driven5 wrote: It's all on the same scale of relativity, so you're basically just saying that it doesn't make sense either way to bring a car that would not be competitive in it's class.

Well, yes. If you have a competitive streak, you can either build a competitive car or you can find people running about the same speed as you and compete with them. PAX doesn't fix a lack of a fully built car for some class, it just addresses the issue of small classes. Nothing more, nothing less.

RedGT wrote: PAX doesn't fix a lack of a fully built car for some class, it just addresses the issue of small classes. Nothing more, nothing less.

Right...So the level of competitiveness/preparation for a given car within its class is completely independent of, and unrelated to, PAX making sense.

In reply to Driven5:

Not sure what you're trying to say there. The modifier is based on the best cars in a given class, modified to Nth degree allowed in that class, and assumed to be driven by a top level driver. This is why it changes now and then. Often a class will lack top level drivers and/or cars that are modified. Other classes get faster, so those PAX numbers get harder while less participated classes get softer. Then the ultra competitive guys sometimes jump into that class because they know they can build a fast car and drive it well.

In a nutshell, PAX is the ultimate of the competition side of autocross. For someone like me who plans/hopes to run a woefully under-prepped Spitfire in FSP, PAX won't mean much. If you prep your car to the limits of a class and are competing for the DOY trophy in your region, it will likely be a different story (although personally, I've never quite understood how DOY points are calculated in the region RedGT and I are members of).

Ian F wrote: Not sure what you're trying to say there...For someone like me who plans/hopes to run a woefully under-prepped Spitfire in FSP, PAX won't mean much.

What I'm saying is that, in my opinion, either PAX means something to you or it doesn't. How it's calculated, and whether you're Captain-Slow in a woefully under-prepped car or a multi-time national champion in your seemingly unbeatable car, is totally irrelevant.

Some people look at PAX time standings, and bench mark against the best and most consistent drivers and cars available through PAX.

Some people look at raw time standing, and bench mark against other drivers and cars of similar overall combined capabilities through raw times.

Some people look at class standing, and bench mark against their direct class competitors.

Of course, none of these have to be mutually exclusive from the others.

Ian F wrote: (although personally, I've never quite understood how DOY points are calculated in the region RedGT and I are members of).

This question has a definite answer. 1st gets 100, 2nd gets 98, 3rd gets 96 and so on. Your worst three scores for the season are discarded. Soup.

evildky wrote: Being in GS you have the second highest pax multiplier, I'd think you'd be pretty happy about that

That's the very crux of my point: I don't want a fudge factor that makes me more likely to trophy. It means less to me because it's indirect, and if at an advantage for being in GS means that even if I win, I don't really win. That is, maybe I have the lowest PAX time, but maybe that's just because PAX favors me, so it's not my win.

There's an intrinsic desire to learn and improve that I think is shared by anybody who does this stuff, but I do do it for the competition. I try not to get too hung up on it, but I also honestly and earnestly am here for that. If I just wanted to improve, I might just keep doing motorcycle track days. I think I have even more to learn there, and I get some big kicks out of seeing improvement. But at least the last time I was AXing regularly, I was pretty good at it (relatively, locally, grain of salt...) and was just getting to where I'd finally gotten a car in the ballpark of competitive. I want to see where I stack up. It's not everything, but it's meaningful.

I get that there is value in PAX and I can totally learn something about where I stand from there. But I can't imagine beating someone by a hair in PAX and feeling anything like the thrill that you do when it's heads-up. There's just too much likelihood that the winning margin is withing the fudge factor, or that the PAX favored your car/class on that day's course.

To your other point, and I think it was raised earlier as well, classing is also imperfect, but you know that going in. There's somehow (possibly not rationally) a distinct difference to me between racing to nonidentical cars on an identical course and racing two more-different cars and indexing a result.

0.001 seconds can be a win heads-up; you'll never convince me that a PAX win of 0.001 isn't a fluke of index.

In reply to Ransom:

I agree. Last year my co-driver and I battled back and forth one event until I eked out a win on my final run of 0.014 seconds. It felt way better to beat him knowing that everything else was as much out of the equation as possible than raw timing an H-street Civic who used the magic of PAX to have the fastest PAX time of the day (I was 9th raw).

I appreciate those who want to use PAX to their advantage and enjoy having a "handicap". I'm going to continue working to make my car faster, if something I do bumps me from my current class to a faster one, I won't bitch I'll just know that I need to keep upping my game but raw time is the one I look at at the end of the day.

Attached is the PAX'ed results for our event this past weekend. The names on this list are the who's who of solo, I always start at the middle and hope I ended up in the top 50%.

http://members.quixnet.net/free2000/cscc031917_pax.htm

Not quite for this event.

RedGT wrote: This question has a definite answer. 1st gets 100, 2nd gets 98, 3rd gets 96 and so on. Your worst three scores for the season are discarded. Soup.

I couldn't remember if that is placing in class or PAX. After looking at the regional rules, I see it's PAX.

Ransom - I'd say it really depends on how you look at the competition of autocross. The PAX just is what it is. Sometimes it'll be your friend, sometimes not. I just remember the timing system being able to calculate PAX position instantly, so there were often some very close battles between our top drivers (and when I was running in Novice class - which is a PAX index class). Trying to find that last .001 second is still there, regardless of how it's calculated.