I'd have thought it would be as easy to put a more valuable brand name on there than to counterfeit a cheap Chinese no-name brand, and a lot more profitable. But I'm not tremendously surprised, either.
Well, I can't say I'm surprised. Literally anything produced in China is copied and sold either under a different name or in this case, as the real deal. I have bought through Tires-easy before. I wonder if psteav needs to check those snow tires I sold him...
MadScientistMatt wrote: I'd have thought it would be as easy to put a more valuable brand name on there than to counterfeit a cheap Chinese no-name brand, and a lot more profitable. But I'm not tremendously surprised, either.
But it be easier to go unnoticed if you just continued to make a tire after the legit company ended it's contract and their molds happened to "disappear."
If it weren't for the fact that consumer reports doesn't take tires from the manufacturer and buys them the same way any other consumer would, this would've gone unnoticed.
Yup. My buddy was working for a company who was having their product made in China. It turned out the plant was running two lines. One was producing the actual item and the other the cheaper knockoff. They were even including warranty cards and using real serial numbers. The company caught on when they started receiving duplicate warranty registrations. By the time it was discovered the contract was up with the plant and nothing could be done about it. Try to sue a Chinese company in a Chinese court and see how far you get. I understand that it's getting better in some ways.
No surprise, this happens a lot. I think they used to call them ghost factories? But I would bet the distributor that the website bought the tires from knew they weren't 100% legit.
The whole thing sounds like a cop-out by the tire OEM as to why their crappy off brand tires are behaving like crappy off-brand tires. Maybe the US distro wasn't aware, but everybody above them was.
Especially since after the whole thing,
Article said:So "they performed worse than expected cause they're fake, but there's no safety issue" so they didn't really perform worse?After discussion with Barry Littrell at API Inc., I now understand that no one has identified a safety concern on these tires. And as such, Barry has advised that there is no need to have the tires returned as there is no safety issue.
When I worked for a major hydraulic pump manufacturer they had HUGE problems with chinese knock offs. Everytime they found one importer he'd close up shop and another would open. Go to a trade show and there would be a TON of photographers with chinese company names on their tags taking high res photos. SOme had the balls to put a tape measure next to the parts in every picture so they could duplicate them.
The first batch was caught when a client had huge problems with their pumps, they kept grenading. He went through his entire stock and then tried to sue my employer. In the suit it was discovered that he had stopped buying from a proper vendor and the purchaser had found them "cheaper" elsewhere. EVERY pump had the exact same serial on it. Which it turns out was the original that the faker had copied. He had no idea what the serial meant so he did not know what data it indicated. (my employer serial tracks down to the minute it was on the manufacturing plant and exactly which workers touched it and for how long.)
He had duplicated the pumps exact dimensions, but there were a lot of proprietary hardness and material differences that make the pump work like it is supposed to. He made the entire thing out of one material not knowing that it the castings were all different steels etc...
another faker had removed a very hard to machine portion of the pump that was actually integral to it working. His pumps failed on start up...
insanely expensive to replace failed hydrualic pumps since when it grenades it contaminates the fluid and the ENTIRE system has to be replaced so it doesnt prematurely wear. Fluid is often extremely expensive...
it's a very very huge issue. They have no patent law there and do not care about ours.
Sounds about right. But on the upside in my industry we're figuring out how to replace the copies of our own equipment with the real deal. Right now we just signed a deal with a Chinese mill that owns two lines of our stuff then bought 3 Chinese copies of it, since the china stuff is really awful they contracted us to replace/upgrade all the copies to the real deal, so we're getting our piece of the pie back.
MadScientistMatt wrote: I'd have thought it would be as easy to put a more valuable brand name on there than to counterfeit a cheap Chinese no-name brand.
Tire molds are expensive and they used what they had after the factory failed. Its pretty common. I still find parts where the Chinese have molds/dies for the 60-70's that they are still stamping stuff out even though the mold has been overrun by 1000%.
An educated consumer would know better than to expect a quality product with "Made in China" on it.
1988RedT2 wrote: An educated consumer would know better than to expect a quality product with "Made in China" on it.
Have you checked the tag on the bottom of the computer you're typing on? They can make a quality product if it's speced properly.
Wayslow wrote:1988RedT2 wrote: An educated consumer would know better than to expect a quality product with "Made in China" on it.Have you checked the tag on the bottom of the computer you're typing on? They can make a quality product if it's speced properly, and their QC department doesnt falsify reports.
fixed for truth. Source, sometimes you wonder why your parts from china/india dont last like you expect, then you test the hardness of them yourself.
Datsun1500 wrote:bigev007 wrote: The whole thing sounds like a cop-out by the tire OEM as to why their crappy off brand tires are behaving like crappy off-brand tires. Maybe the US distro wasn't aware, but everybody above them was. Especially since after the whole thing,How is it a cop out by the OEM? It's not their product. Even if there is a safety issue, it's not their issue. Expecting the OEM to stand behind the fake tires is not reasonable. You can't say "their crappy off brand tires are behaving like crappy off brand tires" because they never made them.....Article said: After discussion with Barry Littrell at API Inc., I now understand that no one has identified a safety concern on these tires. And as such, Barry has advised that there is no need to have the tires returned as there is no safety issue.So "they performed worse than expected cause they're fake, but there's no safety issue" so they didn't really perform worse?
Basically I don't believe that they didn't make them. Or at least that they weren't complicit in the manufacture. The only statements in the article are from the US distributor, not the OEM.
The distributor stated there was not a safety issue. They could only say that if they knew what was in the carcass, and if they performed at the same level (or close to) the real thing. They didn't take the ones from CR and tear/melt them down for a QA inspection, so they already knew what was inside.
Wayslow wrote:1988RedT2 wrote: An educated consumer would know better than to expect a quality product with "Made in China" on it.Have you checked the tag on the bottom of the computer you're typing on? They can make a quality product if it's speced properly.
I have never maintained that my computer was anything other than a piece of E36 M3.
Wonder where the Chinese buy their stuff? Obviously they can't by locally or they'd be buying dangerous crap. Where do the Chinese buy their tires and pumps and hammers and hand tools and fasteners?
WE should all buy them from the same places . . .
If, by some terrible chance, they buy the same junk that they sell us, how on earth do they ever fix anything? Their tools break, fasteners break, hinges break, fixtures break, shovels and rakes break. Everything breaks within a week. How do they hang a door or even screw in a light fixture or shovel snow?
Makes you pity the Chinese Repairman.
bigev007 wrote: The whole thing sounds like a cop-out by the tire OEM as to why their crappy off brand tires are behaving like crappy off-brand tires. Maybe the US distro wasn't aware, but everybody above them was. Especially since after the whole thing,Article said: After discussion with Barry Littrell at API Inc., I now understand that no one has identified a safety concern on these tires. And as such, Barry has advised that there is no need to have the tires returned as there is no safety issue.So "they performed worse than expected cause they're fake, but there's no safety issue" so they didn't really perform worse?
Seems like the best solution here would be for API to send a set of their tires (non-counterfeit ones) to Consumer Reports for a re-test. If the results end up the same, then this is all BS. If the results are drastically different, then it's pretty clear there were counterfeits.
Wayslow wrote:1988RedT2 wrote: An educated consumer would know better than to expect a quality product with "Made in China" on it.Have you checked the tag on the bottom of the computer you're typing on? They can make a quality product if it's speced properly.
This. I've spent the last 15 years dealing with Chinese-made equipment (mostly with regard to ships/maritime parts). Chinese factories are very good at building to spec. If you provide spec and material oversight for, say, some part made in the USA - the Chinese factory can build the same part to the same specs for maybe 80% the cost, provided the requestor will pay for the top-end materials. If the requestor wants it at 50% the cost (read: Harbor Freight), the factory will build to a lower spec with lower-grade materials.
It's really that simple. Most of the mega-factories in China use the same $$$$$$$ manufacturing and million equipment as a factory in Japan, Germany, or the US. China CAN build high-quality equipment, provided the contract specifies it and the buyer is willing to pay for it. But most companies trying to manufacture in China are trying to save 50% or 75% off the US/Japanese/German price, so they get what they pay for.
China has giant factories that license-produce all kinds of Western brands, from giant 20,000 horsepower MAN B&W diesel engines to Raytheon maritime navigation radars. They're exactly the same quality as the ones made in other countries.
The key in having things built in China is to rigorously oversee the operation, have a quality spec that is followed completely, and to use materials of the original spec.
It's when Chinese companies try to copy a complex piece of equipment by reverse-engineering vice by actually buying/getting the plan specs - that's when there are material problems.
Trust me, working in the maritime industry, there is plenty of complete garbage stuff out there made right here in the USA, or in Japan, or in Germany, or in France too. You can buy cheap-spec stuff anywhere. China is no different from any other country: you get what you pay for. Pay for cheapo tires, you get cheapo tires. Pay for top end stuff, China will build top-end stuff. Problem is that most companies don't go to China to have top-end stuff built (because many people won't pay top dollar for something made in China, even if it's just as good). So most Made in China stuff ends up being low-end stuff, further perpetuating the reputation of Chinese stuff being cheap.
Hell, go take a look at your Goodyear trailer tires on your racecar trailer. Mine are all made in China, to Goodyear's spec. They are exactly the same in every way as the single older one (a spare) that was made in the USA several years ago.
The radiator in my e30 is from a company in Guangzhou, China that builds rebranded aluminum radiators under license for Mishimoto (though they cannot use the Mishimoto name). I've put mine right next to an actual Mishimoto e30 radiator. They are identical right down to the welds, gussets, core spacing, etc. Mine cost half as much because it has some cheesy Chinese name on it (not stenciled on the fins). And it's held up great to three years of heavy abuse in rallycross.
On my e30 I originally installed brand-new shock mounts 4 years ago. Both came in FAG boxes. One has Made in Germany stamped on it. One has Made in India stamped on it (FAG has factories overseas). Guess which one failed after 2 years? Hint: Not the one that I expected to fail first.
YMMV.
In reply to irish44j:
I won't deny that there are factories in China such as you describe. I'm sure that those are the ones that Westerners are invited to see. I suspect that most Chinese factories do not meet that description.
I recall speaking with a gentleman a few years ago who described in some detail a factory in China where he was serving as a consultant on behalf of an American company. The factory had a dirt floor and no heat. The processes being used resembled processes used in the states a hundred years ago. Such was the factory that this company had chosen to make its product. I wonder if the quality suffered a bit?
And then there's the whole question of ethics and labor. I don't much care to get into all that. I'll leave this here in case anyone's interested: http://www.greenamerica.org/PDF/2014-Two-Years-Apple-Broken-Promises-ChinaLaborWatch-GreenAmerica.pdf
I'm guessing it comes down to money. If we're willing to pay for it I'm sure there is plenty of good stuff there.
Heck they've gone as far as using tooling from the MD80 to build their own ARJ21 aircraft so it isn't a matter of want - its a matter of willingness. Money talks.
TeamEvil wrote: Makes you pity the Chinese Repairman.
... or it makes him the richest man in town 
.
1988RedT2 wrote: In reply to irish44j: I won't deny that there are factories in China such as you describe. I'm sure that those are the ones that Westerners are invited to see. I suspect that most Chinese factories do not meet that description. I recall speaking with a gentleman a few years ago who described in some detail a factory in China where he was serving as a consultant on behalf of an American company. The factory had a dirt floor and no heat. The processes being used resembled processes used in the states a hundred years ago. Such was the factory that this company had chosen to make its product. I wonder if the quality suffered a bit? And then there's the whole question of ethics and labor. I don't much care to get into all that. I'll leave this here in case anyone's interested: http://www.greenamerica.org/PDF/2014-Two-Years-Apple-Broken-Promises-ChinaLaborWatch-GreenAmerica.pdf
I certainly won't deny the labor and ethics aspect. That wasn't really the discussion though. There are plenty of Americans working for wages that I wouldn't consider ethical either. Story of the world....
As to factories with wood and dirt floors. Sure. Tons of em. China is hardly several decades removed from the industrial revolution. American factories 100 years ago were hardly different. But the major modern industrial zones in China are absolutely amazing both in their newness and in their material condition. These are giant cities that are nothing more than high-dollar factories - many of them built by western companies to take advantage of the low labor/insurance/regulatory costs. Giant companies like Hyundai and GM have factories in China. And western companies will take advantage of the junky factories also, since they cost less = more profit. Let's not act like US companies are ethically sound either, in many cases. They'll use dirt-floor factories and Child labor to make a few extra bucks for the shareholder just as well as the Chinese or Russian businessman will. US industry and business is no more altruistic than any other....
But "invited to see?" China isn't North Korea. You could get on a plane today and go visit any of the giant industrial zones powering China's economy. They'll look a lot like industrial zones in any big city anywhere (but with more pollution than most). There aren't "show factories" for western businessmen, and then the actual work is done in some industrial-age gulag, lol. Most of the old industry is in the poorer parts of China, and most of that industry caters to customers within China.
China's a huge place. And the major coastal industrial cities are night and day difference from the older, less profitable inland industrial zones. In my industry, China's marquee shipyards make US shipyards look like piles of rubble, both in their modernity and in their production capability.
Certainly not a China apologist. There are plenty of things wrong with industry there - massive pollution and lack of regulation; oppression/low pay of the workforce; massive corruption; lack of oversight, particularly in state or oligarchal industries, and the list goes on.
But the modern side of China's industry is every bit as modern as any industry in the US or Europe, Japan or South Korea. And in most cases it's actually more modern because of the sheer amount of money that China has invested in infrastructure in the last 20 years. In many cases, there is more infrastructure than there is use for it (overcapacity).
All that said, I wouldn't buy Chinese tires for a car 
ugh, sorry for the long diatribe. I start typing and then I end up with a freakin' book
In reply to irish44j:
My father bought a new knockoff / reproduction Bridgeport 3-axis milling machine called a Comet that was made in China. It cost less new than a very used Bridgeport was going for. It was a great piece of equipment and worked flawlessly. Genuine Bridgeport accessories mated right up with no trouble.
Was it a good piece of equipment? Definitely. Was the intellectual property stolen from Bridgeport? No real way for a consumer to know, and that's very troubling.
I am in the security electronics business. virtually impossible to find product NOT made in China or Korea. As has been said here, quality can be superb or total trash. My company deals with a very large manufacturer and has a very strict quality requirement. We also are stockholders in the company. Result of that policy is that we have a very small failure rate. Others that do not follow this policy will have the problems the others comment about. We / I do not have to contend with that.
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