Counterfeit wheels, or US importers charging through the nose? (Volk/Rays question)

Hey all, taking the Miata to a track day in August, and it needs something besides all-seasons, so I am putting on better tires and brake pads.  I think I'd rather get a 2nd set of wheels/tires, and keep what's on there now for daily driver use. 

My first choice was to order a pre-mounted/balanced set of Kosei K1s from TireRack (TireRack rocks), they are backordered beyond the event's start.  So, looking at other options, I really like TE37-style six spokes.  I say TE37 style, because most of the US websites are asking $500+ PER WHEEL (vs. $170/per for Koseis):

https://jhpusa.com/products/volk-racing-te37-sonic-wheels-diamond-dark-gunmetal-15x7-4x100-35

I actually stumbled across some on ebay looking for alternate Kosei K1 suppliers, but there are a LOT listed out of Malaysia via this seller:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ssn=kingofrimsmalaysia&store_name=kingofrimsmalaysia&_oac=1&_trksid=p4429486.m3561.l170197

Looking at the pictures, they say "Japan Design" rather than "Made in Japan", and seem to have more lettering around the rim bragging (Monoblock, Forged, etc.).  Are these authentic?  Fakes?  2nd tier/lower quality but real Rays/Volks to be sold cheaper (Lexus vs. Toyota vs. Daihatsu), or are the US importers just marking things up like crazy.  I've run into that with the Cappuccino a couple times, I could order from Japan, with shipping, cheaper than a US importer, which is frustrating. 

Would welcome the forum's thoughts.

Don't trust my memory, but the High Performance Academy podcast had a thing on real/fake wheels a little while back, and I think the "Japan Design" vs "Made In Japan" was one of the important details.

https://www.hpacademy.com/blog/are-genuine-wheels-worth-it/

Also, there's a side rant someday about the difficulty of finding good 13"/14"/15" wheel and tire choices in the US, when Continental/Dunlop/Falken/Michelin etc. makes their 200tw good tires readily available in small sizes in the UK, Japan, S. Korea, etc....not all of us run 18"+ wheels! :P

In reply to Jesse Ransom :

Great link on the video, this forum knows everything.  Based on this photo, going to call it fraud:

Disappointing, because if they just sold these as un-branded 6-spokes, they could have a thing (like some of the TRMotorsports designs, or Konig/Watanabe having similar 8 spokes).  I'm not going to support a seller that labels them Volk/Rays though.  The industry is tough enough without blatant ripoffs.

Flynlow said:

Also, there's a side rant someday about the difficulty of finding good 13"/14"/15" wheel and tire choices in the US, when Continental/Dunlop/Falken/Michelin etc. makes their 200tw good tires readily available in small sizes in the UK, Japan, S. Korea, etc....not all of us run 18"+ wheels! :P

Take these for instance, would be perfect in a 15x7, +~38mm miata fitment, and they offer other wheels in Miata sizes:

https://www.tirerack.com/wheels/WheelCloseUpServlet?target=runWheelSearch&wheelMake=TRMotorsport&wheelModel=C4&wheelFinish=Light+Grey&autoMake=Mazda&autoModel=Miata&autoYear=1997&autoModClar=

Only available in 17/18 :(

Per the Kosei site "Our factories are located in Japan, Thailand, India and China."

https://www.kosei.com.hk/about/ 

In reply to L5wolvesf :

Sorry, the picture was of the TE37s, not Koseis. 

I've run into that with the Cappuccino a couple times, I could order from Japan, with shipping, cheaper than a US importer

Hate to tell you, but that's how the import business works. The value add is someone doing all the import work for you. The downside is that they're trying to make a living and don't work for free. Do the work yourself and you can save some money. This is true over a wide range of industries.

A drastic price difference - like these wheels - usually means a scam, though. Especially on something so valuable and easily duplicated. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Completely fair, but glosses over the wholesale/retail price differential, and i would hope an importer buys in bulk enough to get a discount, with their profit margin coming from a combination of wholesale pricing, bulk pricing, and customer service (say, tech support, or being able to handle/fit products before purchase to confirm suitability).  Buying from the 7th online store in the chain rather than the 6th is sometimes just adding a middleman/toll booth on to a long logistical tail.  

Customer service is a cost center, not a profit center. It's one that people discount until they need it. 

I think you may be overestimating the wholesale margins and quantities purchased on things like Cappuccino parts which are really low volume. Remember, the stocking vendor also has money tied up in stocking parts, which means warehousing space, capital investment and even taxes. 

Somethint higher volume and more generic like wheels are different, and wheels are one place where there are some margins available. But they're also expensive to ship and store, so those margins erode pretty quickly.

Agreed that moving up the supply chain can decrease your costs. But those customer-facing vendors are not necessarily "marking things up like crazy" just because they can. There are a lot more costs in the business than you might think.

So, ive got a set of white 15x7 k1s on my miata, wrapped in used bfg rivals is 225/××/15 (miata. Dont remember exactly if 40 0r 45) down in Charlotte nc. They aren't mint, but they are straight, true, crack free, and freshly balanced. 

I have too many sets of wheels, and am cleaning house. They're currently mounted on death trap, but i have at least three other sets of wheels i can throw at it.

If the k1s are what you want, and this is an acceptable idea, shoot me a call or text.

828-260-1254 

Keith Tanner said:

Customer service is a cost center, not a profit center. It's one that people discount until they need it. 

I think you may be overestimating the wholesale margins and quantities purchased on things like Cappuccino parts which are really low volume. Remember, the stocking vendor also has money tied up in stocking parts, which means warehousing space, capital investment and even taxes. 

Somethint higher volume and more generic like wheels are different, and wheels are one place where there are some margins available. But they're also expensive to ship and store, so those margins erode pretty quickly.

Agreed that moving up the supply chain can decrease your costs. But those customer-facing vendors are not necessarily "marking things up like crazy" just because they can. There are a lot more costs in the business than you might think.

I meant customer service as a justification for higher prices.  I prefer buying through a reputable vendor when possible, and have reached the life stage where I am OK with paying more for it.  As an example, I use FCP Euro for keeping two high-mileage BMW's on the road, even though I could save a few %, because their warranty is legendary, and the two times there were issues with my order, it was resolved quickly and well by a real person.  Plus, watching their support of events at Lime Rock makes me smile.  Also, Flyin' Miata was my 3rd stop looking for wheels and tires (behind TireRack and DiscountTire, because I still have a commercial account at 1, and the other is right up the street), I include you guys on that "preferred supplier" list :).  I've stopped using RockAuto entirely after a couple bad experiences.

In this case, I struck out with 1, 2, and 3 because of timing and availability, so I started searching 2nd and 3rd tier options.  When the ebay seller didn't pass the smell test, I came here to see what I was missing, and got confirmation they were shady.

Sorry if the "marking things up like crazy" hit a sore spot.  It was hyperbole to make a point.  While I appreciate the difficulty of being on the other side of the transaction, for every Flyin' Miata or FCP out there, there's a questionable shop.  I struck out twice going to https://www.rayswheels.co.jp/, then looking for a US registered importer.  The options for a (new, retail) clean, six-spoke (and preferably silver/grey over bronze or black) 15x7 are pretty slim.  

In reply to Dusterbd13-michael :

Text sent!  The forum continues to rock :)

For Miata wheels, don't forget Supermiata and Goodwin Racing... both are right up there with FM for customer service.  Goodwin probably has the widest variety of Miata applicable wheels of anyone, and has great fitment info on their site as well.

L5wolvesf said:

Per the Kosei site "Our factories are located in Japan, Thailand, India and China."

https://www.kosei.com.hk/about/ 

They have a factory in st Mary's Ohio as well; I drive by it every few weeks.

Id first talk to Michael/Dsturbd, I had a set of K1 on my first MR2 and loved them. Still look around for another set for my current 2.

What I'll say is this - look used

FB Marketplace

Craigslist

Ebay

Lots of good wheels out there for a decent price

If youre a fan of the K1 (I am!), I'd also say look into the SSR A2 Integral or Buddy Club / Enkei ...crap, I cant think of the names right now. But thin spoked wheels in the same idea. And light!

I see them all on ebay regularly in 4x100 pattern

Those wheels are faker than a 3 dollar bill.  Notice how nowhere in the listing do they say they are Volks.  They say they are TE37, but thats just TE37 Style.  Also they do not list them as Volks under the brand.  

Plus if you could get a set of real deal Volks for the price of a set of Sport Editions, who wouldn't scoop them up?

In reply to hybridmomentspass :

Integrals are gorgeous wheels, I've got a set on a Miata. But they're not quite in the same price range as the K1 ;)

Keith Tanner said:

In reply to hybridmomentspass :

Integrals are gorgeous wheels, I've got a set on a Miata. But they're not quite in the same price range as the K1 ;)

Ive got two sets currently - one was 200, the other cost me about 400

All eight came with center caps too ha

CL and FB

Flynlow said:

In reply to Jesse Ransom :

Great link on the video, this forum knows everything.  Based on this photo, going to call it fraud:

Disappointing, because if they just sold these as un-branded 6-spokes, they could have a thing (like some of the TRMotorsports designs, or Konig/Watanabe having similar 8 spokes).  I'm not going to support a seller that labels them Volk/Rays though.  The industry is tough enough without blatant ripoffs.

I always worry if they lie about the name, what else are they lying about? I have no issue with buying off brand stuff, but establishing some trust is big, especially on something that could kill you. 

My default for Miata wheels is Enkei RPF1s.  My local tire and alignment guys have been pretty reasonable on these. 

I traded away my K1s a couple of months ago. Exchanged 15x7 size for some 16x8 Enkei RPF1s. I like the look of both of those and the 16s will work better on my MINIs.

Watch for the 949 UL racing wheels as there are lots of miata spec'd sets with tires up on FB that are really reasonable.