Cummins vs Powerstroke vs Duramax

I'm looking into diesels again as the fuel distribution business is starting to take off and the 8400lb towing capacity of the 1500 Sierra just isn't going to cut it

I know we've had various threads over the years discussing the merits of each, but I'd like to make this a bit more specific and all-inclusive of each brand. Nothing newer than 2007 (so we are looking at duramaxs up to the LBZ, 7.3L and 6.0L powerjokes, and 5.9 standard and HO cummins). No older body styles (so basically 1999 and newer).

While I want this discussion to be focused on the drivetrain, actual truck information is good to.

I'll start with my major concern being 6.0L's. They have a bad rap. I'm not particularily fond of the idea of owning one, but apparently if the fixes (headbolts, egr delete, oil cooler fixing) has been completed, they are supposed to be extremely great motors. Great enough that there are lots of claims of them having the most power and best mpg of any of the motors. What say you GRM?

Now, I would also like to discuss the merits of mileage. Fuelly paints an interesting picture, and that is basically that every diesel from the big 3 since 1999 get about the same mpg overall. Is there one that takes to modifications to get the best mpg?

Requirements are towing of 12k lbs minimum. Manual or automatic doesn't matter, but auto is preferred unless there is reason to not go with one (weak auto for instance).

6.0 fix can be the most cost effective route as well

Cummins, /thread

Gobs of torque, 23-25 mpg empty and a tow rating of 13500 for the 2500 chassis in 2004. What's not to like.

I had an 05 6.0 F250 for 4 years. It was a great truck and I had zero issues with it.

Traded it in for a 2015 F350 diesel and got $6,500 for it with 115k miles. They are basically worthless.

From my reading on the 6.0, and I did a bunch as I am shopping for a van with one, most of the problems are related to owners modifying the engines and then working them very hard. The engine lends itself to easy power boosts. That's not to say that the EGR cooler design wasn't flawed on the early ones and the head bolt issue is still a potential problem but there are many 6.0 owners out there who have had zero problems, or at least only "normal" stuff.

However; I look for only '06 & '07 models in my search.

In reply to DaveEstey:

Thats the thing, if you sold it on your own it would have been double. How do I know? I sold a beat to hell 01 f250 with over 250k miles for 4k..

That said bump the 6.0 just get a 7.3 and be done with it they made them to what 03 or 04? Cummins is also a good option.

I feel gm makes the best trucks of the big 3. Cummins makes the best engine, but duramax is 95% as good with 200% better truck. Plus you want an auto so allison ftw. If you dont need 4wd that helps a bunch because then you dont have to pay the brodozer tax. If i were in a position that i needed a one ton for work that was going to do a lot of towing, I would look seriously at a medium duty truck. Typically twice the truck for the same money.

FWIW, I've got a 2003 Dodge Ram 2500 with the Cummins that I bought new. I've got 144,000 miles on it now. I've had a few issues:- Electrical wiring, (maybe caused by faulty brake controller). Leaky rear diff, which took a few trips to the dealer to fix. A/C occasionally needs topping up. Driver's side sunshade broke internally and would flop in my face (can't be repaired, new one was $50).

Dash top is crumbling, as they all do. Haven't got around to fixing it. When I do, there is a kit out there to replace the ventilation blend doors with more durable pieces, which I'll do at the same time. I haven't had any trouble with my blend doors, but many others have.

Rest has been just regular maintenance items. I've heard horror stories about the transmissions, but I've had it serviced regularly every 50k miles and haven't had a problem. Dodge beefed up the transmissions in '04, so I don't know if that is a problem for the later vehicles. I have a feeling the issue is worse for the 1 tons and the 1 ton duallies that are used commercially, but I have no scientific evidence for that.

The Cummins itself-- oil changes, air filter replacement, regular fuel injector cleaning (very important), regular fuel filter changes (also very important) and that's about it.

I'm not familiar with the source of the current crop of pickup diesels, but when I bought the Dodge one of my friends asked me-- "Do you want a straight six diesel that was designed and built as a diesel by a diesel engine company, or do you want a diesel that was designed as a V8 motor and then repurposed by Ford or Chevy?"

I've also got a step son that was a service manager for a Chevy dealer. When he started looking for a diesel he bought a Dodge. He ended up selling it later for a GMC, though, as he "had" to have a 4 wheel drive truck and the solid-front-axle Dodge was too uncomfortable for daily driving for him.

Navistar designed and built Ford diesels until 6.7L Scorpion engine, so I think your friend is a little off base with his "repurposed by Ford or Chevy?" comment. The Chevy is a joint venture with Isuzu, again not a newcomer to the world of diesels.

Basil Exposition wrote: I'm not familiar with the source of the current crop of pickup diesels, but when I bought the Dodge one of my friends asked me-- "Do you want a straight six diesel that was designed and built as a diesel by a diesel engine company, or do you want a diesel that was designed as a V8 motor and then repurposed by Ford or Chevy?"

Neither the Powerstroke or the Dmax started as regular V8 (read: gasoline)engines. Both were designed from the start as diesels. The 2006-2007 LBZ IMO is the truck you want. 6 speed Allison, virtually bulletproof LBZ Duramax (in stock or close to stock tune) and by far the most comfortable riding truck. In my personal experience, the front ends on the GM's are the weak link. Not weak exactly, but rapid wearing and lots of parts so they get sloppy feeling. My personal truck was pretty sloppy feeling for at least 25,000 kms though and none of the parts were dangerously worn when I finally had it done, it's just cumulative looseness.

So if you're doing lots of gravel/dirt/off-highway, my choice may swing to the Ford. I have a couple friends with 6.0 Ford trucks, and after the well-known fixes, they have been very happy with them. The Ford trucks are very tough.

The Cummins is great, but I hate the way those trucks feel. Very rough ride and they really fall apart.

To the OP: I thought you bought a 6.0 gasser GM 2500? Or is that just your personal vehicle and you're looking for a work truck?

I drive a 7.3L. You guys know what I think of them.

But it's pretty old, so I am considering replacement.

I am working for an extended period at a Ford dealership, and got to know their dedicated diesel mechanic pretty well. I told him my PRIMARY issue was reliability, and I asked his opinion...

He said he wouldn't touch a 6.0L.

The 6.4 is his engine of choice.

YMMV.

I keep hearing about the great allison tranmssion in the Bowties. Spill it folks?

Similar to SVreX's comment - go talk to your local machine shop. They see stuff when it breaks, they know what never needs attention. Thanks in part to that conversation, my truck has a Cummins. When I told him years ago that I'd bought a Toyota with a 3.0 V6, he laughed and said those engines had paid a lot of his bills.

It's only got 50k on it so far, though, so I can't take part in any durability conversations. The 2010 Dodge that carries it around has been rock solid other than Dodge's inability to actually perform a recall in less than a year.

Fueled by Caffeine wrote: I keep hearing about the great allison tranmssion in the Bowties. Spill it folks?

It that the same allison that fails in Dodges?

Front ends are trouble on a lot of 4x4 vehicles. They're just hard on them. I got my 7.3 F350 with 150k on it, original front end, and it would not pass MD inspection when I moved here. Needed new...well, everything in the front end.

I had just about every 7.3 issue with my 7.3. It's a good truck, but it hasn't been reliable, and has left us stranded. Now that I've dumped about 6,000 into it, it's been running fine, so it may just be deferred maintenance. The interior (it's a 2000) is not what I'd consider worthy of what was then a 40,000 dollar pickup. Mostly plastic in varying shades of gray. The seats are decent places to park your ass, though.

The transmission behind that 7.3 (R100 I think?) barks every gear nicely and doesn't seem to have any common issues.

Given a higher budget when i was truck shopping I probably would have preferred the 07-ish D-max era Chevies, but they were about double what I wanted to spend. In retrospect I should have just bought one, borrowed the money, and (hopefully) not had any problems.

I managed a 1995 and a 1998 Dodge Ram (both with the Cummins) at on old job. Each had 1000# in the bed and another 6000# on the hitch at all times, and they did serious highway miles. They were fleet trucks that were on the road, so both received sporadic maintenance an oil changes. I put 750,000 on the first and 500,000 on the second before I left. Replaced one transmission due to a botched service, the quick-change place paid the bill. The other truck required a replacement axle, not sure what happened but it was an off-the-shelf part (Dana) at and Dodge dealer and the replacement took a few hours and a couple hundred bucks. That was it.

No experience with the other 2, but if I had to put my money down, it would be on a Dodge.

I hope you didn't have another topic arguing gas vs. diesel and I missed it. Sorry if this now devolves into that.

Disclaimer: if you are a big diesel fan, stop reading now.

You want a 6.0L GAS GM V8. My 2014 Isuzu NPR-HD tool truck has that engine. weighed exactly 14k pounds empty, haven't weighed it full yet (got it loaded last week). I bet its around 17k pounds all in. Goes up hills accelerating from 70 to 80 like its an empty pickup truck. No trouble around town. No worse mileage than the diesel 2004 NPR it replaced, and IF it ever needs an engine I can do the long block myself for 1/4 the price of a diesel. I'll never own another oil burner again.

spitfirebill wrote:

Fueled by Caffeine wrote: I keep hearing about the great allison tranmssion in the Bowties. Spill it folks?

It that the same allison that fails in Dodges?

Don't know if serious... The dodge's never came with an Allison.

Junkyard_Dog wrote: You want a 6.0L GAS GM V8.

As Doc mentioned, I actually had a 2008 2500HD with the 6.0L and 6 speed. I REALLY liked that truck. However, the one I bought was beat and at the time I couldn't justify keeping it around (especially since there was some deferred maintenance coming up and the longer I had it, the more I realized it might not be running right/transmission may of had issues). So I sold it, earned a pretty penny, and parked my butt in a SLT '04 crewcab sierra 1500.

Now with the fuel business picking up, I almost wish I had it back. Unfortunately, the cheapest 07.5+ 6.0L truck is $10k+ up here. I am also looking into the older 4 speed 6.0L's, but they only tow a bit over 10k lbs which isn't really good enough.

DaveEstey wrote: I had an 05 6.0 F250 for 4 years. It was a great truck and I had zero issues with it. Traded it in for a 2015 F350 diesel and got $6,500 for it with 115k miles. They are basically worthless.

When we bought our '13 f-350 for the farm, they only offered us $9k for our 80k mile '99 f-250 7.3....

Basically, the 7.3L and any fixed 6.0L will be on par with the other offerings. I personally dislike Cummins engines mainly due to the way Cummins as a business treated us, but they're still found in E36 M3 wrappers that will rust away if you don't live in the arid southwest. The 5.9's heater block instead of glow plugs is certainly not a plus either.

Isuzu engines aren't bad at all, aside from wanting injectors at 150k miles or so.

7.3L PSD's usually need only a glow plug module every few years. Our '99 has required 2 over the last 15 years, and that is it.

DaveEstey wrote: Navistar designed and built Ford diesels until 6.7L Scorpion engine, so I think your friend is a little off base with his "repurposed by Ford or Chevy?" comment. The Chevy is a joint venture with Isuzu, again not a newcomer to the world of diesels.

6.7idi through the 6.4L of the mid-late 00's indeed. The new 6.7 is Ford's first in house one in a long time, and holy crap did they do a good job.

If you liked the '06 Chevy... you would like the newer ones better with a 6.6L Duramax, 6 speed Allison trans in a 3500 dualie. They are awesome.

Junkyard_Dog wrote: I hope you didn't have another topic arguing gas vs. diesel and I missed it. Sorry if this now devolves into that. Disclaimer: if you are a big diesel fan, stop reading now. You want a 6.0L GAS GM V8. My 2014 Isuzu NPR-HD tool truck has that engine. weighed exactly 14k pounds empty, haven't weighed it full yet (got it loaded last week). I bet its around 17k pounds all in. Goes up hills accelerating from 70 to 80 like its an empty pickup truck. No trouble around town. No worse mileage than the diesel 2004 NPR it replaced, and IF it ever needs an engine I can do the long block myself for 1/4 the price of a diesel. I'll never own another oil burner again.

I had an '01 Chevy truck with that motor. The only new truck I've ever had.

Torquey, comfortable, great tow vehicle.

It got 9 miles per gallon. Empty. . Pathetic for a modern vehicle.

I get 22 mog out of my 7.3L with the same configuration (long bed, extended cab, 2wd).

I would consider a gas burner, but not a 6.0L.

In reply to yamaha:

No kidding. Ours is a silent rocket ship whether empty or hauling 10k pounds.

Leaving both stock and just working out of them.

Auto 6.6 with Allison

Manual: cummins.

Had a customer who said they used the 6.4s or 6.0s in busses and it didn't have all the emissions stuff anf it was one of the best diesels he ever worked on. I've personally seen way to many big dollar repairs on a 6.0 and 6.4 to ever recommend one.

I'm out here in podunk texas so I have a very large sample size