Dealers are still slime-holes.

Josh wrote: Not a salesman story, but I had a particularly irritating day with a dealer Saturday. My mom brought her Mazda 5 in for service (and to have a rear suspension noise looked at, it's still under warranty). She asked for the dealer to perform the 30,000 mile service. Her mistake was assuming that the dealer would perform the services recommended in the manual and charge accordingly. She was infuriated when she got a bill for over $400 for the service. Here's what the 30k service (schedule 2 for harsher climates) in the owner's manual includes: -Change Engine Oil & Filter -Inspect: Drive Belt Tension Coolant level Lights Brake lines Brake Fluid Level Disc Brakes Tire Pressure/Wear Steering Operation PS Fluid Level F&R Ball Joints & Wheel Bearings CV Boots Washer Fluid Level -Lubricate Locks and Hinges -Tighten bolts and nuts on chassis and body (this one I'm not quite sure what it entails, but I am fairly certain no bolts were actually tightened on the car during this service) So she was expecting maybe a $100+ bill at the most, given that the 30k service basically amounts to an Oil change and a list of "inspection" items that were mostly already included in the state inspection she was also paying for at this time. When my dad and I asked how this partucular service could have possibly cost $400, they stated that "their" standard 30k service included this list on a paper he handed to me: According to this sheet, they overrode the factory maintenance schedules in the following ways: Air filter every 15k (factory severe duty schedule is 35k) Fuel filter every 30k (factory schedule does not specify) Wiper blades every 15k (factory schedule does not specify) Cabin air filter every 15k (factory schedule is 25k/2yr) Balance wheels every 15k (factory schedule does not specify) Added "services" on the list include: Load test battery (free at Autozone, more a ploy to sell batteries than a service) Reset Maintenance Indicator light (I should hope this is included with any maintenance) Complimentary (HAHAHA) wash and vacuum (the car was dirty inside and out before and after we picked it up :) Rental Car included (mom was NEVER told that she could get a free rental with service, instead she waited for a saturday appointment open to avoid missing work) Even the price listed on that sheet was a lie, there was an addtional $25 fee on the bill titled "Customer Pay Shop Charge For Repair Order", so the real price was $390 (plus the state inspection fee). The 3 wiper blades they replaced were installed by me 2 WEEKS AGO! I made sure they at least retrieved them out of the trash and gave them back to me, since they were expensive frameless ones rather than the junk blades that they installed. BTW, this is the SECOND time this dealer has replaced and thrown away wiper blades I had just installed, according to my mom. They also rotated and balanced a set of tires that were installed approximately 1000 miles ago, which was absolutely obvious to anyone with eyes (they still had the little rubber feelers on the edges of the tread). There was no fuel filter listed on the reciept, so I have to assume it was not even replaced as indicated on their list. The list of actual, value-adding work that was performed was an oil/filter change, air filter change, cabin air filter change, and a state inspection. I could have changed the oil and filters for about $40, and brought it in for the sticker myself. Even paying honest labor prices and dealer parts prices I cannot see how anyone with a conscience could charge more than $150 or so for this work. If they only did what was actually listed in the manual it shouldn't even be that much. My mom has said she is never going to set foot in that place again, and right now my dad is looking up Foresters to buy for her. Don't the manufacturers have any idea what this sort of dealer behavior does to their brand? They will probably never consider a Mazda again, and I almost wish I hadn't recommended the 5 when I learned about the Motorsports S-Plan deal.

OK, you took a car in and asked for a generic service. You did not get a price quote up front. You did not specify anything at all and it's the dealer's fault? SEriously? Yuo need to get out of fantasy land.

In reply to Bobzilla:

when the owners manual says "this is what should be replaced at the 30k service" one might expect that is what would be replaced. at the mazda dealer i go to, they say, well the manual just replaces the minimum, we recommend that you also perform these services, at which point they give you a choice.

when you go to mcdonalds and ask for a cheeseburger, fries and a coke, if you don't say you only want a single burger, small fries and medium coke, do they automatically give you a triple cheeseburger, jumbo fries and jumbo coke? i bet not. they might ask if you want that size though.

Bobzilla wrote: OK, you took a car in and asked for a generic service. You did not get a price quote up front. You did not specify anything at all and it's the dealer's fault? SEriously? Yuo need to get out of fantasy land.

At least try to pay attention. This wasn't me bringing a car in for service, it was my Mom, who is generally a lot more naive and trusting when it comes to car repairs than I would ever be. But if you still feel that it's ok to take advantage of her, well, you can join all of them in their special place on the other side.

If we are just supposed to accept that a dealer's SOP is to screw everyone over as much as possible, what good are they for ANYTHING other than warranty work? It's really unfortunate that most people just ASSUME that they have to do all service at the dealer to keep their warranty. I had to explain to my mom that this was not the case just this afternoon.

I will always remember our experiences with the Mercedes dealer. Yeah, the one who said that the 190e was expected to be unreliable as their entry level car.
My wife made the mistake of mentioning a brake squeak as she left the car for one of its many transmission services. I predicted as we drove away that she would get charged for a brake job. Guess what was on the recommended list when the service writer called later that day. I think that it was that day that Debbie decided that she was ready to trade the POS and shortly thereafter she was the proud owner of our first RX7 and having to learn how to drive a 5spd on a daily basis.
Until I bought the GTO this spring and tow vehicles, we have owned only japanese based vehicles and NEVER go back to the dealership for service. The Ford trucks and SUV's never required service but the Suburbans always seemed to have little things ie windows or power locks that needed repair.

White_and_Nerdy wrote:

Karl La Follette wrote: Dealers and car salesmen have a special place in hell set aside for them

Next to child molesters and people who talk in the theatre.

A special hell.

Had one stealership insist on adding $250 to the price of a used car for etching the VIN on the window glass. It was even typed into one of their contracts where every other number - and I mean every number - else was handwritten. The total price was still OK with this bogus charge so I didn't bother arguing. However, I never did figure out where they etched the VIN.

Oddly enough, the Challenge Probe had the VIN etched in the windows and the dealer never mentioned it (and probably didn't realize it).

MadScientistMatt wrote: A special hell. Had one stealership insist on adding $250 to the price of a used car for etching the VIN on the window glass. It was even typed into one of their contracts where every other number - and I mean every number - else was handwritten. The total price was still OK with this bogus charge so I didn't bother arguing. However, I never did figure out where they etched the VIN. Oddly enough, the Challenge Probe had the VIN etched in the windows and the dealer never mentioned it (and probably didn't realize it).

Wow rip off. It seems like every summer there is a fire/police department that offers that for free...always seems to be on days that they instruct people on the proper way to install a car seat.

Recently, a coworker of mine had a bearing go out on her Jeep. It was the bearing for the airconditioner and she was told by the dealership that the entire compressor would need to be replaced....$1653!!

I questioned them about just changing the bearing and was told A: not available B. Did not have the (expensive) tools to do the job and C. No qualified personel to insure ANY warrenty.

Well, the Jeep sat at her house for about 2 weeks while she rallied together some money and she decided to take it in to them.

Note: I offered to do this for $600 with a new compressor and recharge.

She went back to check after being told 3 days and was met with dumb stares. I was there and they could not find her car, had no record of any work or orders for her car. VIN check was negative...not in their system!!

A search of the repair area found 3 silver Libertys but none were hers. A flash of inspiration caused her to use the remote on her keyring and we were lead to the used car lot where her car was apparently for sale.... Very clean, new front tires, all her stickers removed, CDs apparently got distributed among techs or trashed, Betty Boop floor mats and seat covers found in the trash and...... they replaced the bearing on the air conditioning compressor.

They actually had the gall to attempt to charge her for the "repairs" including the $1653 for the new compressor. I had lots of fun informing an 18 year old teary eyed girl that it was time to get angry, not upset.

End result was 5 of 8 CDs were recovered and they wished us a nice day. I was kinda upset over the "Fast, Cheap and Out of Control" air freshener that turned up missing.

Bruce

would have been interesting if they had actually gotten it sold... what happens when someones new-to-them car ends up having been stolen by the dealer?

I would have accepted the new STi as a replacement, and nothing less

Josh wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: OK, you took a car in and asked for a generic service. You did not get a price quote up front. You did not specify anything at all and it's the dealer's fault? SEriously? Yuo need to get out of fantasy land.

At least try to pay attention. This wasn't me bringing a car in for service, it was my Mom, who is generally a lot more naive and trusting when it comes to car repairs than I would ever be. But if you still feel that it's ok to take advantage of her, well, you can join all of them in their special place on the other side. If we are just supposed to accept that a dealer's SOP is to screw everyone over as much as possible, what good are they for ANYTHING other than warranty work? It's really unfortunate that most people just ASSUME that they have to do all service at the dealer to keep their warranty. I had to explain to my mom that this was not the case just this afternoon.

I don't care if it's a dealer, a camerashop, a deli, whatever. You never just ASSume they will do what you want without telling them. You also NEVER just say "Do it" without getting a price quote first. You've have to be very dense to not do that first. VEry dense. Then to complain that any service provider did what they do as far as servicing goes and not what you wanted, but never told them, is ruh-tarded. Seriously. They can't read your mother's mind. They can't read your father's mind. They can't read your mind. If you (you meaning plural, as in all of you) don't ask for specific services or accomodations, then they can't do it.

I'm not sure what you do for a living, but if I was to come to your place of employment and ask for "X" that you do every day and then come back later to retrieve "X" and it was not what I assumed it was but never asked, who would be at fault? You? or the guy that never bothered to ask.

Seriously people. USE YOUR DAMN HEADS FOR SOMETHING OTHER THAN A HAT RACK. Use something I call Common Sense. And more importantly, try not to use blanket statements like "ALL", "EVERY".... not all dealerships are shady.

Strizzo wrote: In reply to Bobzilla: when the owners manual says "this is what should be replaced at the 30k service" one might expect that is what would be replaced. at the mazda dealer i go to, they say, well the manual just replaces the minimum, we recommend that you also perform these services, at which point they give you a choice. when you go to mcdonalds and ask for a cheeseburger, fries and a coke, if you don't say you only want a single burger, small fries and medium coke, do they automatically give you a triple cheeseburger, jumbo fries and jumbo coke? i bet not. they might ask if you want that size though.

ACtually, my wife can't get a "plain burger.... burger bun" from any fast food without getting everythign.

Again, you never assume on any service. No matter what the service is or on what. Ever.

Bobzilla wrote: I'm not sure what you do for a living, but if I was to come to your place of employment and ask for "X" that you do every day and then come back later to retrieve "X" and it was not what I assumed it was but never asked, who would be at fault? You? or the guy that never bothered to ask.

A list of what it should include already exists. It was handed to the customer by that very dealership when they bought the car. This isn't a random pulled out of thin air assumption. And pretending it is, and insulting people makes you look like an ass.

While asking may protect you from this sort of thing to a certain extent, that doesn't make doing it in the first place remotely ethical/scrupulous. The whole point is to take advantage of people who don't ask. You can (and in fact do) keep saying that the customer could avoid this. And that is mostly true. But that doesn't change the fact that it's slimy to begin with.

"The customer could avoid it" is a wholly separate issue form whether it's slimy or not. Demonstrating the former doesn't remove the sliminess of the latter.

Bobzilla wrote: Again, you never assume on any service. No matter what the service is or on what. Ever.

Agreed. But the reason you don't assume is to avoid slimy shiny happy people like this dealer. So the fact you could have avoided it, doesn't make the dealer less slimy.

all of this is why I will probably never own a new car. I like dealing with a private party

1. you list a car
2. I look at/test drive the car
3. I like the car and haggle relentlessly for a fair price
4. we exchange cash for title
5. we probably never speak again in this life

no room for BS about you never asked so I never had any legal responsibility to do what was right. I like my cars slightly broken in, with a healthy tint to the carpets and a nice worn feel to the gear selection device thank you very much

In reply to Bobzilla:

last time i ordered a burger, they didn't charge me extra for the lettuce and mustard.

They charge extra for cheese and bacon..... same difference.

Bobzilla wrote: They charge extra for cheese and bacon..... same difference.

Yep. If I order a burger off the menu, and they instead give me a bacon cheeseburger and charge for it, that's pretty similar to what just happened. And guess what? It's slimy.

keethrax wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: I'm not sure what you do for a living, but if I was to come to your place of employment and ask for "X" that you do every day and then come back later to retrieve "X" and it was not what I assumed it was but never asked, who would be at fault? You? or the guy that never bothered to ask.

A list of what it should include already exists. It was handed to the customer by that very dealership when they bought the car. This isn't a random pulled out of thin air assumption. And pretending it is, and insulting people makes you look like an ass. While asking may protect you from this sort of thing to a certain extent, that doesn't make doing it in the first place remotely ethical/scrupulous. The whole point is to take advantage of people who don't ask. You can (and in fact do) keep saying that the customer could avoid this. And that is mostly true. But that doesn't change the fact that it's slimy to begin with. "The customer could avoid it" is a wholly separate issue form whether it's slimy or not. Demonstrating the former doesn't remove the sliminess of the latter.

So I suppose you think Dealers are to sell you cars and services at cost as well. No need to make money, Obama will bail them out right? Why is there a "severe" and a "normal" category if all are equal and everything is so black and white? Is it because different areas require different services depending on location and the way vehicles are driven? You expect a SoCal car to have the same needs as a Northern Montana car? No. That's why there are differences dealer to dealer across the country.

I learned very early on in life that you always ask how much first. That way, if they are trying to rip you off you go somewhere else. Period. If you don't ask, it's your own fault at that time. This whole "blame someone else because I was too [insert word of choice]" crap has got to stop. Take some personal responsibility.

Strizzo wrote: In reply to Bobzilla: last time i ordered a burger, they didn't charge me extra for the lettuce and mustard.

I get charged extra for L&T at a real burger joint.

I know this site is 100% anti-dealership and that anyone that shows compassion for the working slobs there are looked at as a heretic, or worse an evil "stealership" employee. But reading the same drivel over and over gets to be a bit much after a while. Give it a rest already.

Regardless of who is at fault here, the dealership screwed up. It's a reasonable expectation on the part of a customer that taking a car in for a 30,000 mile service will result in a car being given a 30,000 mile service as described in the factory maintenance schedule.

Where the dealer screwed up was by not making their extra services clear ahead of time. Many people will appreciate it if you suggest a way to take better care of their car and take some time to discuss it with them - and more importantly, you avoid this final result: a pissed off customer who won't come back.

We can argue all we want about if the customer is at fault for not querying exactly what would be done, but regardless it's the dealership that loses. A well-run shop will do what they can to avoid pissed off customers, as nobody wins in that situation. It doesn't matter if it's a dealership or a hole-in-the-wall general mechanic shop, a good one communicates with their customers.

Bobzilla wrote: So I suppose you think Dealers are to sell you cars and services at cost as well. No need to make money, Obama will bail them out right? .

What the hell does that have to do with anything anyone has written? Oh, right, it doesn't You're just flailing about now. You avoided my entire point in order to keep hurling insults. Makes it clear you're not worth replying to anymore.

Keith wrote: We can argue all we want about if the customer is at fault for not querying exactly what would be done, but regardless it's the dealership that loses. A well-run shop will do what they can to avoid pissed off customers, as nobody wins in that situation. It doesn't matter if it's a dealership or a hole-in-the-wall general mechanic shop, a good one communicates with their customers.

I'd say it's a fallacy (one that people on both "sides" are hiding behind) that fault is one-sided. In a situation like this both are at fault, and both lose.

The naive customer loses in the short term by having been hosed by an unscrupulous dealership. The unscrupulous dealership loses a potential long term customer for a one time gain. Bad business.

As I view unscrupulous as worse than naive, my sympathies are with the customer, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize their role in this. A less naive customer would have asked, and then the dealer loses both the short term money-grab and the long term customer. A much better outcome. Find a new dealer or independent shop that isn't out to hose you and everybody who should win, wins.

Bobzilla wrote: They charge extra for cheese and bacon..... same difference.

which aren't part of the standard hamburger, are they? if you ordered a hamburger, and they gave you a bacon cheeseburger and charged you accordingly, thats basically what has happened here.

Bobzilla wrote: So I suppose you think Dealers are to sell you cars and services at cost as well. No need to make money, Obama will bail them out right?

HUH? Are you implying that anyone who follows the FACTORY RECOMMENDED maintenance schedule on their car is somehow going to put the dealer out of business, that the dealer can't possibly make any money by simply providing an honest, necessary service for their standard labor and parts rates? If that's really the case, then they probably SHOULD fail, as should any business whose goal is to mislead and take advantage of customers. There are plenty of honest businesses that can take their place, and it's really a shame that so many people let themselves be taken. The fact that some people mistakenly trust them NEVER makes it right no matter what you or anyone else says.