Desktop mills that are worth it?

I need a mill.  Unfortunately I don't have room for a full size Bridgeport, so I was thinking a benchtop mill or a mid-sized mill (such as the Grizzly below)

My work envelope for most things is fairly small, probably 5x5x10" would cover 90% of what I want to work on right now , but half of what I want to work on would probably fall in an even smaller envelope that might be covered by one of these https://www.amazon.com/Proxxon-37110-Micro-Mill-MF/dp/B0017PTAHG

Just wondering if anyone has bought one of these micro or mini mills and been pleased with them.

I've heard good things about the Precision Mathews mills.  They're made offshore, but have better quality control and a domestic company for support.

One thing to consider is how fast you consume vertical space on a mill. Vise is a couple inches. Drill chuck a couple inches more. Drill bits, more still.

Littlemachineshop.com

I haven't used any of them but there is a lot of discussion on Youtube and other places about converting them to CNC mills.  Most of what I have seen about that is with the slightly smaller Grizzly G0704 mill or the Precision Matthews PM-25MV.  Folks seem to be happy with the results.  I think the Chinese mill situation is similar to the Chinese lathe one: they're all made by the same company in China with different brand names for retailers like Grizzly. Different brands may offer a different feature here or there and one or two parts may be different - but many of the parts interchange.  Some of those differences may make a difference and I have generally heard that the Precision Matthews branded ones are a little better than the others.

I have had a Grizzly similar to the one above and I have had a Sherline as well as Bridgeports and a variety of 40 and 50 taper mills at work. It is about expectations. The Sherline was used to train students in G-code, it could cut metal but with small cutters and slower feed rates. It was a great little machine for teaching, it didn't have enough power to hurt yourself too easily and it could cut wood, plastic, aluminum etc. The Grizzly was a really good table top machine, it was very good for cutting steel and you can hang a fair amount of weight off the table since it has reasonably heavy castings. As long as you have throat depth to reach what you need and you are realistic about what you are buying and how much power it has they are all capable machines.

I have a shop full of Grizzly equipment- love it.  
 

Having said that, all my Grizzly stuff is woodworking equipment. No metal working equipment. 
 

I would hesitate before buying Grizzly for machine work.   It's good stuff at a great price, but their stuff often lacks a little precision. Like I said, I have no Grizzly metalworking equipment, so take my comments with a grain of salt. 
 

My bench top combination mill/ lathe is a Smithy.  Love it.

I've had Harbor Freight's version of the X2 mini mill for about 10 years, same as Grizzly, Sieg, Micro Lux, etc.  I bought it with a New Years Day 25% off coupon, back before they had so many exclusions on their coupons.

It's handy, but for sure has its limitations.  I've done some Little Machine Shop upgrades, the gas strut conversion is very worth it, I'd never go back.  I bought a bunch of iGaging DROs off of Amazon or eBay, made my own adapters/mounts, instead of buying the kit, took a lot more time, but was a lot cheaper.

It's a mill, but it's not really a precision tool, better than an angle grinder sure, but the lead screws have so much back-lash, using the gradiations on the X & Y knobs is about impossible.  There are aftermarket ball screw upgrade kits for them, I've toyed with the idea of going that route, would be pretty much mandatory for a CNC conversion.  For the time being the iGaging DROs make up for the lack of precision from the knobs.

A lot of folks complain about the plastic drive gears, there are upgrades, Little Machine Shop sells a timing belt drive conversion.  I still have my original gear set, and have never had an issue.  I do my best to make many light passes, and don't over load the machine, staying well within its limitations.  I'd rather keep the plastic gears as a fuse.

There are more options now that these things have become so popular, but the X-Y table uses a less common 7/16" T slot, don't do like me, get your first ever mill, assume they're all the same, and buy the more common 1/2" T slot clamping set.

I'd for sure buy mine again, I don't regret owning it, it's aided in several projects, and has provided new projects as well.  I've done the mods mentioned earlier, but also built a stand for it with built in storage, and have designed it so I can add a coolant/cutting fluid system to it.

Asa,  I will add to the discussion so far that no matter what machine you wind up with, plan to spend more than you think on tooling and setup equipment. The basic set of tooling that comes with new machines gets you started, but not really enough to be consistent and productive.

I have been looking for something closer to a Bridgeport since my lathe mill combo does not really have the Z clearance or horsepower for some of the things I have plans for. Luckily there are a few folks around here that have the time to chase down the auctions and adds and then resell machines AND they make sure they are under power for inspection before purchase. Granted it is not the cheapest way to buy, but there is some peace of mind in knowing the machine is in working order before buying.

In reply to Mr_Asa :

The used machines you have been posting in other threads would be a much better use of your $$. 5X5x10 is huge for one of those machines. 5X5X5 is extremely large. 

I do have the Harbour Freight version (Cummins?), and you can definitely make stuff, but they cost what, $750ish?, And, as mentioned, the money is in the tooling. It costs the same weather you have a large or small Mill,

In reply to wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) (Forum Supporter) :

I thought surely you were mistaken, but I just looked at their website, the HF Central Machinery Mill is $900!!!  Jeebus!   I paid $503.79 in 2013, and that included whatever freight was to ship the thing to my door step.

Yeah, there's no way I'd pay nearly a grand for one of these things.  I'd be looking for a used small-ish Enco or similar used import, probably with a bunch of tooling, power feeds, and a real DRO for not much more than that.

bigdaddylee82 said:

I've had Harbor Freight's version of the X2 mini mill for about 10 years

I have that exact machine. I'm happy with it but if I were to do it again I'd probably look for something a little bigger and heavier.

Regarding prices, I bought a small lathe brand new last year. I recently saw that the price has just about doubled

What does it take to convert a full size Bridgeport to power feed and 3 axis CNC ?

Are there any brands of CNC mills that are worth searching for on Craigslist / Offer-up ?

Bridgeport size  down to  Benchtop size

Thanks

wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Mr_Asa :

The used machines you have been posting in other threads would be a much better use of your $$. 5X5x10 is huge for one of those machines. 5X5X5 is extremely large. 

I do have the Harbour Freight version (Cummins?), and you can definitely make stuff, but they cost what, $750ish?, And, as mentioned, the money is in the tooling. It costs the same weather you have a large or small Mill,

Part of the problem with what I've been posting is that I'm renting.  No way am I paying for 3-phase to be installed in a rental, and my garage is 100% full right now.  If I weren't renting I could have a storage shed out back and have my outboards and bullE36 M3 stored out there so I could run actual machines in the garage.

If I need a full Bridgeport I've still got friends at USF that will let me camp in the machine shops for a night or two.

For what it's worth, you don't need 3 phase. A cheap variable frequency drive does the trick and gives you infinitely adjustable speed, albeit with some torque loss.

The Bridgeport is kind of a 2200 lb beast of burden. Great when you need it, and I make use of mine more than I'd expect. That said, the idea of moving in a couple years isn't appealing. Not a huge problem, but I wouldn't want to move it a couple times.

A new benchtop mill costs the same as a worn out big guy. Converting a Bridgeport to ball screws and cnc isn't chea, I remember scoping it out at a couple grand when I got my mill.

There may be a good middle ground... Small knee mills usually found themselves with hobbyists, they take the same footprint as the big Grizzly benchtop guy, and should have more headroom to boot.  I was cross shopping the Clausing units before I pulled the trigger on my mill.

Tooling isn't cheap, but it's a slow wallet blood letting at least.

There are basically two small mill types, round column, and dovetail column.

Do not get a round column mill.

The small dovetail mills are mostly made by Weiss in China.

I have the bigger version of the Grizzly G0704, the Weiss WMD30LV.  It's not bad, I've done lots of mods to it but from the factory is isn't terrible.

In a word, yes. 

My first mill was a HF Mini Mill. It was a great little machine and I made a fair amount of stuff on it. My only issue was it was the size. Machining a intake manifold was a bit of a challenge. 

If you go with a small machine, make sure it uses R8 collets. Most large machines use the R8 collet system so any tooling you buy will transfer over when or if you buy a bigger machine. 

My current machine is a Jet Mill Drill. It also has some limitations but it does 98% of what I need. While I would love a Bridgeport, the ceilings in my shop are a little low. If you have the space and can find one cheap I would jump. The 3 phase problem is easily solved with a $100 VFD from Amazon. 

Little Machine Shop is a great resource for small machines. They used to have a lot of how too videos and articles as well. 

I should not have clicked on this thread.

Keith Tanner said:

I should not have clicked on this thread.

I was hoping that you and Tom S would click on this thread, actually.

Especially Tom.  I need to see where he's at with his baby CNC

I know nothing about mills, so I have nothing to contribute. I also would like to hear from Tom on his baby toy :)

Hah. Hi everybody. I've been shopping these extensively, and keep coming to the conclusion that if you have the space and a buddy with a forklift, a used Bridgeport is 1000% more capable for about 50% more money.

I'm actively shopping for a full-sized Bridgeport for my shop. Not CNC (those are out of my budget) but every expert I've talked to has said you don't need CNC for one-off parts on a Bridgeport.

Hopefully sometime in the next few months I'll be posting about how I finally bought one. I thought I was close on a deal a few hours away, but the seller has been thinking it over for two weeks now....

In reply to Tom Suddard :

Any update on the baby CNC?  Done anything bigger than keychains?

In reply to Tom Suddard :

I had a machinist buddy that was cleaning up his father's property of tons of scrap metal. Pulled into the recycler with a truck and trailer full and was weighed. Drops off the scrap and notices the head of a medium sized Bridgeport poking out of a smallish pile. He talked to his friend that worked there and they loaded the bp onto his trailer, He ended up getting the machine for about $150 after weighing the truck/trailer on the way out and paying the yard the difference.

Just needed a new motor and was still dialed in to <0.0001". Probably should have bought a lottery ticket that day as well.

In reply to Mr_Asa :

I was in a pinch and made a washer out of sheet metal, but otherwise no. I've been focusing on finishing up the 350Z for the past few weeks.

I've been using the 3D printer extensively for prototyping, though, and now have a few parts ready to machine on the little CNC. I'm hoping to get to it next week and will definitely update the thread when it happens!

In reply to Tom Suddard :

I'll be looking forward to reading the update.

We use our work 3D printer for prototyping machined parts all the time. Saves a lot of effort and money.