RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:I'd love an electric car as a 2nd car thats a daily commuter, but daily beaters for me don't ever cost 35k+.
And you can get a $7500 tax credit on that if you qualify (and some states have more rebates and incentives)
RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:Like most EV threads, hopefully this one doesn't go crazy, but I think EVs are probably the perfect daily driver for most people. Most people don't care about sound or engagement and actually prefer things to be soft/quiet.
Keeping on the actual topic of EV enthusiasm and not the usual discussion about how EVs do and don't work...
EVs do make sounds. They're a different sound than ICE, but once you associate that weird whine with the performance you start really appreciating it. I've noticed that Porsche features the sound in Taycan ads, which makes me think that maybe people are starting to accept it. I love that noise, I enjoyed hearing it in 2014 when the F1 ICE power units weren't overwhelming it.
Engagement isn't necessarily about the vibrations that are coming from the drivetrain. It can also come from throttle response, which EVs have in spades. It can come from a big car that hustles like a small one due to a low center of gravity and a spookily effective torque vectoring system. You don't have to be hot and deafened and dealing with lumps in your power delivery to be engaged :)
They do make a very good daily driver, but it's also possible to enjoy them for enthusiast reasons.
Chris_V said:RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:I'd love an electric car as a 2nd car thats a daily commuter, but daily beaters for me don't ever cost 35k+.
And you can get a $7500 tax credit on that if you qualify (and some states have more rebates and incentives)
Yeah, I know about that one. I mulled it over but its going away soon and it seems like theres new and possible promising ones coming this way. (more range, faster charging, stuff like that). Also, in reality I just don't need an EV for now.
Keith Tanner said:RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:Like most EV threads, hopefully this one doesn't go crazy, but I think EVs are probably the perfect daily driver for most people. Most people don't care about sound or engagement and actually prefer things to be soft/quiet.
Keeping on the actual topic of EV enthusiasm and not the usual discussion about how EVs do and don't work...
EVs do make sounds. They're a different sound than ICE, but once you associate that weird whine with the performance you start really appreciating it. I've noticed that Porsche features the sound in Taycan ads, which makes me think that maybe people are starting to accept it. I love that noise, I enjoyed hearing it in 2014 when the F1 ICE power units weren't overwhelming it.
Engagement isn't necessarily about the vibrations that are coming from the drivetrain. It can also come from throttle response, which EVs have in spades. It can come from a big car that hustles like a small one due to a low center of gravity and a spookily effective torque vectoring system. You don't have to be hot and deafened and dealing with lumps in your power delivery to be engaged :)
They do make a very good daily driver, but it's also possible to enjoy them for enthusiast reasons.
Oh yeah, sorry if I went off topic. I do know some people who are very enthusiastic about their EV. My boss recently bought a Tesla Model Y and he loves it. He loves the torque/response, and he also loves the convenience. He also nerds out on the tech/software.
RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:Oh yeah, sorry if I went off topic. I do know some people who are very enthusiastic about their EV. My boss recently bought a Tesla Model Y and he loves it. He loves the torque/response, and he also loves the convenience. He also nerds out on the tech/software.
That reminds me of another category of EV enthusiast. The efficiency nerd. Same kind of guys that were/are into diesel cars. These guys check on battery condition all the time and nerd out on ways to eke out every last electron or add every electron they can find.
Yes, that's a solar panel on the hood and a larger one on the roof (with the hatch held open and enclosed in order to mount it on the roof)
Chris_V said:RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:Oh yeah, sorry if I went off topic. I do know some people who are very enthusiastic about their EV. My boss recently bought a Tesla Model Y and he loves it. He loves the torque/response, and he also loves the convenience. He also nerds out on the tech/software.
That reminds me of another category of EV enthusiast. The efficiency nerd. Same kind of guys that were/are into diesel cars. These guys check on battery condition all the time and nerd out on ways to eke out every last electron or add every electron they can find.
Yes, that's a solar panel on the hood and a larger one on the roof (with the hatch held open and enclosed in order to mount it on the roof)
Yup. He talks about how he limits the charge to 80%, doesn't let it drop below 40%, how he pre-conditions the car and all of this other stuff. I'm not too knowledgable about it so I can't really remember it all but he goes on and on about it.
Speaking of pricing. Of course that includes some marketing magic. Starting price here is $37K, then tax credits.
*and estimated gas savings
So slimy and borderline deceptive to say that. If I'm coming from another brand EV, then that "savings" doesn't count. State the actual friggin' price. THEN let me decide if I'm going to get tax credits, incentives and "gas savings."
In reply to Chris_V :
Agreed. The devil is always in the details.
Chris_V said:*and estimated gas savings
So slimy and borderline deceptive to say that. If I'm coming from another brand EV, then that "savings" doesn't count. State the actual friggin' price. THEN let me decide if I'm going to get tax credits, incentives and "gas savings."
Agreed. I hate marketing like that. They can't possibly know what I currently drive, how much electricity costs in my area, etc. Just list the price and let people figure it out.
One week EV owner here. I picked up a 2020 Bolt last week (with battery already replaced under recall). So far I like it as transportation appliances go; its a fairly quick econobox. The instant power takes abit to get used to: I almost rear-ended someone while passing because Im used to either abit of boost lag, or downshifting two gears. Wife was not impressed...
Regarding sound, I really want a selectable Jetsons speaker for parking lot usage.
RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:Chris_V said:*and estimated gas savings
So slimy and borderline deceptive to say that. If I'm coming from another brand EV, then that "savings" doesn't count. State the actual friggin' price. THEN let me decide if I'm going to get tax credits, incentives and "gas savings."
Agreed. I hate marketing like that. They can't possibly know what I currently drive, how much electricity costs in my area, etc. Just list the price and let people figure it out.
Since we're going to go there anyhow :)
They do show their work including all assumptions, and have a tool so you can tweak the numbers based on your personal numbers. You just have to click on the link that says "learn about est. gas savings" right there on the front page.
https://www.tesla.com/model3/design?financeModalTab=gas_savings#overview
I thought it was slimy at first as well, but came to realize it's legit. The gas savings can be real - I figured we were saving $112/month charging the EV at home versus feeding the Grand Cherokee it replaced, and that was with a daily average trip of 22 miles. Getting people to think of the total monthly spend as payment+ fuel instead of just payment is part of getting over the "EVs are overpriced" mindset. They may still be more expensive than gas cars, but do they cost more to operate month to month? How do you get people to start thinking that way? Tesla's tried one method. What would be better?
Keith Tanner said:RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:Chris_V said:*and estimated gas savings
So slimy and borderline deceptive to say that. If I'm coming from another brand EV, then that "savings" doesn't count. State the actual friggin' price. THEN let me decide if I'm going to get tax credits, incentives and "gas savings."
Agreed. I hate marketing like that. They can't possibly know what I currently drive, how much electricity costs in my area, etc. Just list the price and let people figure it out.
Since we're going to go there anyhow :)
They do show their work including all assumptions, and have a tool so you can tweak the numbers based on your personal numbers. You just have to click on the link that says "learn about est. gas savings" right there on the front page.
https://www.tesla.com/model3/design?financeModalTab=gas_savings#overviewI thought it was slimy at first as well, but came to realize it's legit. The gas savings can be real - I figured we were saving $112/month charging the EV at home versus feeding the Grand Cherokee it replaced, and that was with a daily average trip of 22 miles. Getting people to think of the total monthly spend as payment+ fuel instead of just payment is part of getting over the "EVs are overpriced" mindset. They may still be more expensive than gas cars, but do they cost more to operate month to month? How do you get people to start thinking that way? Tesla's tried one method. What would be better?
Definitely don't want to go there but I just want to say I might be one of the few that doesn't think of the whole monthly payment thing as a consideration because I'm not a fan of debt. I think most people realize that EVs are cheaper to fuel and have less maintenance required for them.
In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :
While most people might have been told it's less expensive to operate an EV, it's likely very few have actually done the math. I was surprised at how much our costs had dropped when I ran the numbers on gas alone, not other maintenance. It wasn't a factor in our purchase decision but it was a very nice thing to see. The Tesla savings calculation is an attempt to actually show the numbers to bring the point home. It comes across as slimy but there does need to be some "estimated monthly savings" shown somewhere for potential buyers.
Keith Tanner said:In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :
While most people might have been told it's less expensive to operate an EV, it's likely very few have actually done the math. I was surprised at how much our costs had dropped when I ran the numbers on gas alone, not other maintenance. It wasn't a factor in our purchase decision but it was a very nice thing to see. The Tesla savings calculation is an attempt to actually show the numbers to bring the point home. It comes across as slimy but there does need to be some "estimated monthly savings" shown somewhere for potential buyers.
I'm not a fan of the marketing but I can understand why they do it. I just prefer things to be straightforward.
Anyways, on the topic of enthusiasm, I was pretty juiced up about the new Mini Cooper EV/Volvo EX30 because if those things get the tax credit, they're the second coming of the Bolt for me and I may consider it.
Keith Tanner said:Engagement isn't necessarily about the vibrations that are coming from the drivetrain. It can also come from throttle response, which EVs have in spades. It can come from a big car that hustles like a small one due to a low center of gravity and a spookily effective torque vectoring system. You don't have to be hot and deafened and dealing with lumps in your power delivery to be engaged :)
I have little to add to this, other than that I love that last line. The idea of an E-locost really appeals to me from a driving engagement standpoint; how much more basic can you get than one pedal to make it go, one pedal to make it stop, a gigantic donut in your hands to make it turn, and a lever to pull to keep it from rolling away when you park and definitely not do irresponsible things like handbrake turns?
BumpHeadRacing said:Keith Tanner said:Engagement isn't necessarily about the vibrations that are coming from the drivetrain. It can also come from throttle response, which EVs have in spades. It can come from a big car that hustles like a small one due to a low center of gravity and a spookily effective torque vectoring system. You don't have to be hot and deafened and dealing with lumps in your power delivery to be engaged :)
I have little to add to this, other than that I love that last line. The idea of an E-locost really appeals to me from a driving engagement standpoint; how much more basic can you get than one pedal to make it go, one pedal to make it stop, a gigantic donut in your hands to make it turn, and a lever to pull to keep it from rolling away when you park and definitely not do irresponsible things like handbrake turns?
Funny. I'm kinda the opposite. I like mechanical empathy, heel-and-toe, rev-matching, interesting smells, puttering with cranky bits and pieces. To me an E-locost is kinda like shooting a gun at a range. Too easy. I'm more of an archery-in-the-bush mindset.
I saw a Hyundai Ioniq 5 today for the first time in the flesh. I thought it looked even better in person than in the photos, although I wish it were physically smaller, like the 1980s/1990s hot hatches that it resembles.
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:BumpHeadRacing said:Keith Tanner said:Engagement isn't necessarily about the vibrations that are coming from the drivetrain. It can also come from throttle response, which EVs have in spades. It can come from a big car that hustles like a small one due to a low center of gravity and a spookily effective torque vectoring system. You don't have to be hot and deafened and dealing with lumps in your power delivery to be engaged :)
I have little to add to this, other than that I love that last line. The idea of an E-locost really appeals to me from a driving engagement standpoint; how much more basic can you get than one pedal to make it go, one pedal to make it stop, a gigantic donut in your hands to make it turn, and a lever to pull to keep it from rolling away when you park and definitely not do irresponsible things like handbrake turns?
Funny. I'm kinda the opposite. I like mechanical empathy, heel-and-toe, rev-matching, interesting smells, puttering with cranky bits and pieces. To me an E-locost is kinda like shooting a gun at a range. Too easy. I'm more of an archery-in-the-bush mindset.
^I'm with this guy. I like the feeling of controlling a complex-ish machine.
RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:BumpHeadRacing said:Keith Tanner said:Engagement isn't necessarily about the vibrations that are coming from the drivetrain. It can also come from throttle response, which EVs have in spades. It can come from a big car that hustles like a small one due to a low center of gravity and a spookily effective torque vectoring system. You don't have to be hot and deafened and dealing with lumps in your power delivery to be engaged :)
I have little to add to this, other than that I love that last line. The idea of an E-locost really appeals to me from a driving engagement standpoint; how much more basic can you get than one pedal to make it go, one pedal to make it stop, a gigantic donut in your hands to make it turn, and a lever to pull to keep it from rolling away when you park and definitely not do irresponsible things like handbrake turns?
Funny. I'm kinda the opposite. I like mechanical empathy, heel-and-toe, rev-matching, interesting smells, puttering with cranky bits and pieces. To me an E-locost is kinda like shooting a gun at a range. Too easy. I'm more of an archery-in-the-bush mindset.
^I'm with this guy. I like the feeling of controlling a complex-ish machine.
And yet these are massive fun and there's no clutch pedal, heel-and-toeing, or any of that.
Where's the cutoff for what's enough things to control vs not? Hand starters, manual chokes, and manual spark advance levers? Why set that limit at one more pedal? ;)
Chris_V said:RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:BumpHeadRacing said:Keith Tanner said:Engagement isn't necessarily about the vibrations that are coming from the drivetrain. It can also come from throttle response, which EVs have in spades. It can come from a big car that hustles like a small one due to a low center of gravity and a spookily effective torque vectoring system. You don't have to be hot and deafened and dealing with lumps in your power delivery to be engaged :)
I have little to add to this, other than that I love that last line. The idea of an E-locost really appeals to me from a driving engagement standpoint; how much more basic can you get than one pedal to make it go, one pedal to make it stop, a gigantic donut in your hands to make it turn, and a lever to pull to keep it from rolling away when you park and definitely not do irresponsible things like handbrake turns?
Funny. I'm kinda the opposite. I like mechanical empathy, heel-and-toe, rev-matching, interesting smells, puttering with cranky bits and pieces. To me an E-locost is kinda like shooting a gun at a range. Too easy. I'm more of an archery-in-the-bush mindset.
^I'm with this guy. I like the feeling of controlling a complex-ish machine.
And yet these are massive fun and there's no clutch pedal, heel-and-toeing, or any of that.
Where's the cutoff for what's enough things to control vs not? Hand starters, manual chokes, and manual spark advance levers? Why set that limit at one more pedal? ;)
Everyone has things that they prefer and like. Not sure what you're going for here.
Chris_V said:RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:BumpHeadRacing said:Keith Tanner said:Engagement isn't necessarily about the vibrations that are coming from the drivetrain. It can also come from throttle response, which EVs have in spades. It can come from a big car that hustles like a small one due to a low center of gravity and a spookily effective torque vectoring system. You don't have to be hot and deafened and dealing with lumps in your power delivery to be engaged :)
I have little to add to this, other than that I love that last line. The idea of an E-locost really appeals to me from a driving engagement standpoint; how much more basic can you get than one pedal to make it go, one pedal to make it stop, a gigantic donut in your hands to make it turn, and a lever to pull to keep it from rolling away when you park and definitely not do irresponsible things like handbrake turns?
Funny. I'm kinda the opposite. I like mechanical empathy, heel-and-toe, rev-matching, interesting smells, puttering with cranky bits and pieces. To me an E-locost is kinda like shooting a gun at a range. Too easy. I'm more of an archery-in-the-bush mindset.
^I'm with this guy. I like the feeling of controlling a complex-ish machine.
And yet these are massive fun and there's no clutch pedal, heel-and-toeing, or any of that.
Where's the cutoff for what's enough things to control vs not? Hand starters, manual chokes, and manual spark advance levers? Why set that limit at one more pedal? ;)
For me an indoor kart track would become boring fairly quickly. We are all wired differently. Some people can spend their vacation drinking booze and lying in the sun. All power to them. I'm the guy who will hapily join you on the beach... after mountain biking, scuba diving and maybe hitting a museum on the way. That's why I want an EV - for my appliance duties, not my enthusiast ones.
My statement was that "you" (ie, whoever is reading my statement) does not have to have noise/smells/weird power delivery/a funky clutch/a hand throttle/whatever to be engaged. Perhaps you prefer that normally, but leave your mind open to the idea that it may not actually be a hard requirement. If any of us were planted behind the wheel of the I.D. R or even one of those crazy European Formula Student vehicles you can bet we'd be engaged :) It's certainly no appliance.
That's the question. Can an EV be engaging? Definitely. Are they all engaging? No. Are all ICE cars engaging? Of course not. All else being equal, is an EV less engaging than an ICE? Ah, there's the question, and I'm going to argue "not necessarily". The attributes of the ICE may not add anything useful to the experience and might actually be distracting/counterproductive. Or maybe they'll be the core of the experience. Just don't define the level of engagement you get with a vehicle purely from the source of propulsion.
That's what I was getting at, Keith. Dismissing something as it cannot be any fun just because of the lack of one archaic mechanical interface is silly. I got all the EXACT same arguments when I built my V8 RX7 with a built AOD in it for autocrossing.
People claimed up and down that it could not POSSIBLY be any fun to drive because it didn't have a clutch pedal.
Keith Tanner said:My statement was that "you" (ie, whoever is reading my statement) does not have to have noise/smells/weird power delivery/a funky clutch/a hand throttle/whatever to be engaged. Perhaps you prefer that normally, but leave your mind open to the idea that it may not actually be a hard requirement. If any of us were planted behind the wheel of the I.D. R or even one of those crazy European Formula Student vehicles you can bet we'd be engaged :) It's certainly no appliance.
That's the question. Can an EV be engaging? Definitely. Are they all engaging? No. Are all ICE cars engaging? Of course not. All else being equal, is an EV less engaging than an ICE? Ah, there's the question, and I'm going to argue "not necessarily". The attributes of the ICE may not add anything useful to the experience and might actually be distracting/counterproductive. Don't define the level of engagement you get with a vehicle purely from the source of propulsion.
Oh, now that I'm re-reading your response to one of my original comments I see what you're getting at. I guess I unintentionally said that EVs could not be engaging but what I meant was that I think that people can be enthusiastic about EVs for different reasons (such as the tech/software and the convenience/qualify of life benefits). I do have different preferences in the cars I like and I don't think everyone has the same preferences. There's also the fact that the few electric cars that I've driven felt boring (to me), but would be a totally fine appliance to me. I probably should have made it clear that I don't really mind or care if the car makes sound or what moves it, but new cars in general have numb steering and mostly numb everything to me, including new ICE powered cars (like the random 2023 WRX I drove today). Maybe a Porsche Taycan would change my mind, but I haven't had a chance to drive one yet.
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