Do I Want A Turbocharged Car?

This is another, perhaps annoying, question regarding getting a car suitable for rallyX. It is more specifically about turbochargers. I have never really considered owning a car with a turbo because of the price of a replacement turbo. Also, I don’t need another project if a turbo were to fail.

There are 2 cars available. Each at what may be a reasonable price if the turbo doesn’t unexpectedly sheet the bed. So at least part of this inquiry is are turbos as prone to going bad as I think they are?

If it matters, one is a Neon SRT, the other is a Mini Cooper. At a minimum a replacement Neon turbo would be about $600, a Mini about $400

Thank you

SRT-sure.

MINI-Nope.

The above is an opinion.

The turbo itself is cheap. If that's a limiting factor, I'd go over your budget again and see if you can afford RallyX. 

Ironically, the only turbo I've ever seen fail were on the 2.3T Mazdas. They had a high failure rate on the CX SUVs and it often occurred just out of warranty. Even the cheap Chinese turbos seem to be reliable enough. 

Turbo replacement would be real, real low on my "wear item" list if I'm rallycrossing a car

Keep good filter in front of it, and your turbo likely won't do any E36ing any time soon. I started endurance racing cars with a 35 year old 150k mile turbo  and a 30 year old 250k mile turbo. Neither has perceptively more play than it did before we started.

I've owned three turbocharged cars.

None of them have survived being modified by me.

The urge for "just a little more" is too much to resist.

calteg said:

Ironically, the only turbo I've ever seen fail were on the 2.3T Mazdas. They had a high failure rate on the CX SUVs and it often occurred just out of warranty. Even the cheap Chinese turbos seem to be reliable enough. 

 

Turbo replacement would be real, real low on my "wear item" list if I'm rallycrossing a car

Just for kicks I googled CX-7 turbo.  One of the first hits was an Amazon link for a new turbo with a warranty for 267 dollars.  There was a time when the only cars in my driveway/garages were either turbocharged or a Chevy 350.  That collection included an Audi A6 2.7TT, Mazda RX-7 Turbo II, Volvo 945T, and Mazda CX-9 2.5T, though not necessarily all at the same time.  Don't be skeered of the turbo!

1988RedT2 said:

calteg said:

Ironically, the only turbo I've ever seen fail were on the 2.3T Mazdas. They had a high failure rate on the CX SUVs and it often occurred just out of warranty. Even the cheap Chinese turbos seem to be reliable enough. 

 

Turbo replacement would be real, real low on my "wear item" list if I'm rallycrossing a car

Just for kicks I googled CX-7 turbo.  One of the first hits was an Amazon link for a new turbo with a warranty for 267 dollars.  There was a time when the only cars in my driveway/garages were either turbocharged or a Chevy 350.  Don't be skeered of the turbo!

The failure was really just the oil seals going bad. Still made boost and the car still ran, you just created a Spy Hunter smokescreen behind you

I have owned two turbo cars. One was a Fiero GT that I built a engine for and turboed.  300 bhp for twenty years, no problems, boost limited to 10 psi

Current one is a Solstice GXP with a modified turbo - up to 25 psi, 375 bhp out of a 2.0. Dead reliable so far although I haven't put high mileage on it since I bought the car new in 20099 ad then modified it a little.

Suggest that if you buy a turbo car you have it checked out by someone that knows them first.  And $800 is cheap for  turbo - agree that if that worried you, a turbo vehicle might not be a good way for you to go.

Yeah I never thought of a turbo as anymore likely to fail than the pistons or valves. If the car is getting beat on hard enough to start breaking pistons then yeah your turbo may get on a list.

My impression is that experience of regular turbo issues went away in the mid late 90s unless you were modding the turbo itself or running fancy race turbos for drag racing and needed the last millipascal to win.

You might want to change the srt turbo controls for faster spoolup and also change your driving style to deal with the turbo lag. Even if minimal lag it requires different right foot work to get best use of traction. 

I think the combination of water-cooling bearings and better ECU management has done away with the worst of the issues. Unfortunately, like owning a pitbull, there's lasting damage to their reputation no matter how well behaved they are now (we own a pitbull mix :). Back on topic, my car went through all sorts of drama, but none of it involved the turbocharger directly.

Yes, you want one.

In reply to kb58 :

Water cooling helped a ton. 
Also, they're not big fans (har har) of FOD so leave the filter on. Every car I've purchased out of CA has had no air filters, so don't buy a turbocharged car from CA :)

If the car is just for rallycross, then in my opinion you do not want a turbo car. You want the most simple and cheap to fix car you can get. And while it depends on the course layout somewhat, I prefer NA power bands compared to turbo engines so you don't have lag exiting a corner. 

I would not rallycross a turbocharged front wheel drive car, personally, but you do what you want.

When I rallycrossed my S40, I generally turned the boost all the way down to make it more drivable.  It would also build full boost at 1/4-1/3 throttle thanks to the tiny divided-turbine turbo.  At street boost levels (8-9psi) it was either coasting or spinning the tire(s) even with rally tires on.  It was also kind of like that on the street a lot of times, too 

I really prefer the linearity of a naturally aspirated engine with 2wd.  AWD works nice with turbo because the power delivery is more suited to the amount of grip available.

HopmanJones said:

If the car is just for rallycross, then in my opinion you do not want a turbo car. You want the most simple and cheap to fix car you can get. And while it depends on the course layout somewhat, I prefer NA power bands compared to turbo engines so you don't have lag exiting a corner. 

The only time you get lag is when too big a turbo is put on.     A 2 liter 4 cylinder will perform without lag with a T2 sized turbo.   
   Don't get greedy and keep the fuel rich ( or use E85 )  and cheap Chinese made turbo's last a very long time.  If they fail you are only out $130. 

Lag is weird... you don't notice it on the street, but when you are trying to jockey throttle to exit a corner, you notice it.

The stock turbo in my AWD car has no noticeable lag on the street, the times I rallycrossed it however, were maddening.  Have to nail the throttle halfway around the corner so that hopefully the turbo wakes up at the right time for corner exit... but at the same time, you're still applying some amount of power mid corner so this affects handling.

I say this as I look at the 2007 STi turbo that I bolted to the 2.0l WRX engine for a dedicated rallycross car and have second thoughts 

IMHO most turbo failures (with a few exceptions) are due to either a lack of maintenance or poorly considered and/or installed mods by the owners.  As long as you have a good air filter in front of it and keep the oil and filter fresh (i.e. ignore the extended oil/filter change intervals that some manufacturers are recommending) then most turbos are pretty reliable.  

Ive had four turbo cars - two were MR2, a FC, and an 84 Chrysler Laser

Knock on wood, never a turbo issue.

The one 2 had right at 200k on it and I beat the heck out of that car.

I would stop worrying about turbos

Noddaz said:

Yes, you want one.

This.

I have had a 1.8t Audi TT, no mods at all. Turbo lasted 200k miles. My other is a 2.0t Golf R that is quite built, 120k on 25psi and no issues yet.

calteg said:

Ironically, the only turbo I've ever seen fail were on the 2.3T Mazdas. They had a high failure rate on the CX SUVs and it often occurred just out of warranty. Even the cheap Chinese turbos seem to be reliable enough. 

 

Turbo replacement would be real, real low on my "wear item" list if I'm rallycrossing a car

Can confirm. There's a dead one in my garage, right now. 

Big fan of Volvos with turbos.  Most Euros have it figured.  Japanese,  OK, although the two most popular Japanese turbo cars don't seem to have sturdy enough head gaskets for anything more than commuter work, and an American turbo needs to be a 3500 series truck or larger. 

I a wee bit bigoted, being a long term Volvo shop, and fanboy.  Plus, I think I've changed maybe 3 white block turbos in the last 35 years.  Others just are not as sturdy.

But I'm a bigot.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

As long as you run quality oil and a very good filter, yes.  The oil return passage in the block skirt likes to get clogged if not careful, which lets oil pressure blow the seals

I have owned about a dozen turbo diesels where EGTs get really high and they spend a buttload of their time with my foot to the floor towing 10-15k lbs and particulates galore.  The turbo isn't the issue, IMO.  A well-engineered system will provide an easy quarter-million miles.  An Ebay turbo with an Ebay intercooler and some guesswork on oiling?  Not so much.

I've owned a few turbo cars over the years. Never really had any issues with the turbos themselves. You learn to drive around the lag and the turbos will last a long time if you're careful with warmup/cooldown and oil changes.

The problems I did run into had to do with the associated plumbing: mostly intercooler hoses popping off at inopportune times. Also issues with massive underhood temps when running on the track for more than 20-25 min at a time. And fuel consumption is staggeringly high when running full-throttle, full-boost all day long. For me, it wasn't a great fit for what I actually use my cars for: namely, open track days and W2W club racing. 

Thanks, I appreciate the real world experience comments.

I can see that turbos have become more reliable over time and keeping the car maintained helps a lot.

If I do end up with a turbo’d rallyX car it will be run in Stock or maybe Prepared. It will also be street driven but not necessarily a daily. I won’t be fooling around with aftermarket turbos in part because I am naturally a naturally aspirated guy with carbureted tendencies.