Does a Chevy v8 make a Jaguar better? It sure seems to make them more valuable.

This freakin guy. Never changes. 
 

frenchy there were countless varieties of small block Chevies. You can't just blanket statement 160 hp. Plenty of them had way more horsepower. Forged cranks. Aluminum heads. Roller cams. Etc.

There's a lot more out there than some sad sack pickup engine you continue to harp on. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) :

I think you are confusing gross horsepower with Net horsepower. 
     Yes the Corvettes had one 350 rated at 370 gross or Advertized.   ( LTI ).  1972  But once they converted to SAE NET. Even   The Corvette dropped to 160. 
       Later Corvettes with EFI  did climb up from that. ( I owned a 1986 )  But those are pretty pricey engines.  Not saying that it never happens. But  the cost for one of those to stick in a 4200 pound 4 door sedan?   Really?   Frankly I've never seen it done.  I see mostly Target masters and junkyard engines. 
  Someone could do it I suppose.  

The early small blocks definitely make more than 160hp net, at least before they choked them down for emissions.  Gross hp isn't going to be more than double the net hp, so the 370 -> 160hp drop isn't just a gross vs net difference. 

But I'd also bet that many of the SBCs swapped into things aren't stock.  There are plenty of reasons to hate on an SBC or the idea of swapping it, but it does have the advantage of a huge (and relatively inexpensive) aftermarket for performance upgrades. 

 Nobody is hating on Chevy's.  In my lifetime I bought 22 new and several used. Chevy's yes Chevy's I've own 2 Corvettes and will talk to you all day about how good Chrvy's are.   I've sold Chevys and did very well because I like them . That came across to my customers. 
       I've never bought a new Jaguar.  But I've owned at least 30.  Most of which I pulled the motors out of and scrapped.  
       I've raced Corvettes and you have to replace everything inside  in order to have any hope of winning.  ( in order to win first you must  finish). Then the block itself needs to be a high nickel content 4 bolt main.    
        NASCAR doesn't use anything stock not even the block. They haven't for 40 years. 
     I raced my last Jaguar with mostly original parts for almost 40 years.   
    My next race car is a motor right out of the car with 90,000+ miles on it. Unopened.  Only the cams won't be original. You can change both cams on a V12 in less than 1/2 the time it takes to replace 1 in a Chevy V8.  
    Too bad you focus on only Chevy's. There is a whole world out there.  Filled with parts   To Make different cars go faster.    Beware of parts too cheap  there is a reason they are cheap and likely that  reason does not include winning. 
     

Don't talk down to me like I'm some dimwitted kid still learning the ropes. I'm not confusing anything.

Frenchy, I earned my ASE Master patch in 1991 and I still hold it currently, 32 years later. And if you think that's too low of a credential, I also have my FAA Airframe and Powerplant licenses which I have held since 1994. I worked heavy line in a Chevy dealership back when TBI and TPI were still new technology and our uniforms said Mr Goodwrench. I have repaired, rebuilt, or replaced every permutation of small block under the sun.

I'm just worn out with you making up numbers to suit your agenda. How many times have I called you out for saying that a small block Chevy crankshaft only weighs 28 pounds ?

By all means, don't let the facts get in the way of making your point.

frenchyd said:

yupididit said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I'm willing to bet that majority of Jags that are Chevy swapped are not particularly desirable or rare XJ6's. Not the XKE's and premium condition XJS-12's that you are referring to  support your position. An XKE is a terrible datapoint because they're pricy in rust bucket condition. You always brag about how cheap they are then talk about how valuable they are, which one is it? 

Another thing, tach and AC had been figured out on these swaps for almost 3 decades, it's rather simple and easy. Probably, the easier part of the swaps. And the most common kits are almost plug and play at this point. People are finishing these swaps in a single day now,  then taking it to get exhaust finished the next day. 

I support any persons right to do whatever they want with a car they own.  
  I'm far from a purist because I'm a racer and whatever works is what I like best. 
     If you notice I try to point out the  alternatives. And reasons why you shouldn't. 
   Example?  The cost of a swap in time and money.   A good running used Chevy engine and transmission is more expensive and takes more time than just replacing the original engine. Plus you don't have to fabricate or buy alternative  motor mounts, change or fix the tach and speedometer modify the exhaust.  Change the drive shaft. 
   Power?  Don't be fooled the Chevy 350 makes 160 hp net. The Jag 4.2 makes 170+ 1.1%   A decent running Jag  4.2 engine  can make 4-500 hp with boost  It will cost less to do that  than swap in a Chevy engine and transmission. 
   The Borg Warner model 12 is actually stronger than a turbo 350.  ( both are made in America)   Now I'm not a fan of the Borg Warner  so I would swap in a Trimec  or some other manual transmission.  But again I'm not a purist. 
       Finally. You asked about XKE    Use Hagerty prices and  I'll agree.  
 I can make a very cheap XKE  because I'm building a race car from scrap.  Nothing has to be original.  .   The frame ( front 1/2 weighs 22 pounds). the body ? I doubt I'll have $500 in it.   Mechanicals I've got from free rust out  cars I scrapped.  Decades ago.   In fact most of the mechanicals I took apart so I could sell "clean"  aluminum and other metals.  Instruments?  Grab some old ones off the shelf. 
   Some of the money I'll have in it will be for modern safety gear. But if it's not mandated I'm not counting it. 
  Hence the undocumented part. 
      

1. I didn't ask about the XKE, you brought it up to prove Jaguar's have a high value. I simply stated the XKE isn't a fair datapoint because majority v8 swaps aren't in XKE's.

2. You mention the cost of a swap being time and money but then go one about building a XKE from scratch. Sounds very time consuming. Please don't reply to this because I already know the story. 

3. People swap more than just the lowest 160 hours power SBC that you seem to always reference. You've been proven wrong about this on this forum and the Jaguar forum. What about the LT1? Or the various versions of LS/LM/LQ Chevy v8 engines that are frequently swapped into Jaguars?

I'm not going to go back and forth with you for 7 pages. But, come on man! I know you know this lol

In reply to yupididit :

There were a lot of V8 engine swaps into XKE's. Well some anyway there weren't a lot of XKE's made and even fewer  came to America. 
  But you know all that.  
      As I've repeatedly said. As far as I'm concerned anybody can do anything with any car they own. 
  I'm no purist. I'm a racer and that's my bias. 
  Regarding time to build a racer?   Probably a lot less than to do a proper swap. 
    As far as non stock engines. Or high performance engines?  Sure but why?  
  If you want to go fast you put as much power as you can in as small light car as you can. 
   The 4 door sedan weighs 4200 pounds.  The 2 door XJS weighs 4600 pounds.  If you doubt me I'll take a picture of page 7 of the Haynes manual.   
        Ron  Pennsinger ran the Coventry Cat house and used to do a lot of engine swaps.   He made a lot of money doing it and they all were junkyard used engines. Or Target master new engines.    I got most of the V12's and only 2 were junk.  The rest were fine.  
        But if you need to win?  OK you win 

frenchyd said:

In reply to Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) :

I think you are confusing gross horsepower with Net horsepower. 
     Yes the Corvettes had one 350 rated at 370 gross or Advertized.   ( LTI ).  1972  But once they converted to SAE NET. Even   The Corvette dropped to 160. 
       Later Corvettes with EFI  did climb up from that. ( I owned a 1986 )  But those are pretty pricey engines.  Not saying that it never happens. But  the cost for one of those to stick in a 4200 pound 4 door sedan?   Really?   Frankly I've never seen it done.  I see mostly Target masters and junkyard engines. 
  Someone could do it I suppose.  

Here is some real stats for. In the corvette 1972 1973 and 1974 the base 350 l48 corvette had a net hp rating of 200. 350 Lt1 in 1972 was 255 hp net. 350 L82 in 1973 and 1974 had net hp of 250. Yes in 1975 the first year of the catalytic converter the l48 made 165 net then started making more again in subsequent years. The l82 made 205 net in 1975. Was back to 220 to 230 net hp in the late 70s and 1980.

Frenchy, DBAD.   I can be in your corner at times.....  But come on now.  My 2004 XJ8 has basically a Ford engine in it.  (Yeah, yeah, joint effort, don't need a history lesson).  So, if you put a Ford in a Jaguar, Sir Lyons turns in his grave?   There's a butt for every seat, if someone puts a Chevy motor in a Jag, MG, or a Fox Body Mustang, it's their vision.  that's what this sport is all about.  

In reply to MotorsportsGordon :

Not sure how you'd get those numbers.  Since that's not what was published back in the day.  
  I look up horsepower on a 1969 Impala recently and they had 3 numbers.  
 250 ( I assume a 2 barrel?  255 4 barrel ? and 300 high compression good  heads?   
 But those were all Gross numbers. 
  Incidentally  the 4.2 Jaguar had an advertized    gross horsepower of 265  but when it was net rated it was 170. 

I'll remind you, in my life I've bought  and paid for 22 new Chevy's  several used. ( I'm only guessing but I think less than 10)   I obviously like Chevy's   When I got out of the Navy I sold new Chevy's and was very successful. I also did it 40 years later and again was successful.  I've raced a Corvette  and  built 6 small blocks for racing. 
   
You know in my whole life I've never seen a swapped Jaguar with anything except a 4 barrel on it. Never fuel injection. All but one of those 4 barrels was a Quadrajet  ( Holley the exception) 
    
     While I'm sure I haven't seen every swapped Jaguar  I think until I start seeing EFI  on swapped Jags.  I'm still probably right for most swaps.   
One final point.    I'm a racer. I've been doing it since 1962. I did have 1 circle track racer that was a 55 Chevy but  the engine was a 1955 Cadillac Eldorado 

  Anyway most of my racing has been vintage sports car racing. When I watch video's I see the 6 cylinder Jag  dicing it out with the 454Corvettes. Not always winning but really 454+ against 258?   
    Then there is when the V12 ( 326 ) took on  the 350 Corvettes  in SCCA B Production. Both were in the front row. And the V12 won.  
      It also won plenty in IMSA Racing. In the heavier XJS.  If you really want to see what the V12 is like against small block Chevy's and Fords  watch the 1985 Batherst in Australia. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to MotorsportsGordon :
   
You know in my whole life I've never seen a swapped Jaguar with anything except a 4 barrel on it. Never fuel injection. All but one of those 4 barrels was a Quadrajet  ( Holley the exception) 
    
     While I'm sure I haven't seen every swapped Jaguar  I think until I start seeing EFI  on swapped Jags.  I'm still probably right for most swaps.   

Small block, fuel injected, way more than 160 horsepower.  Literally the first post of this thread.

In reply to Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) :

and don't forget jagsthatrun used to do L98/700R4 swaps. 

frenchyd said:

That's it? To earn your respect all I have to do is show you a 28 pound small block crankshaft?  
  OK. I'll do that. Just for you. 
 

  In the mean time why would you think I've called you a dim witted kid?   Are you feeling ?  You did read that I've bought and paid for 22 new Chevy's in My lifetime?  Several used ?    
   That I sold Chevy's with pride and confidence.?  
  So what's your problem? 
          

going to be difficult since you can't copy and paste. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) :

I think you are confusing gross horsepower with Net horsepower. 
     Yes the Corvettes had one 350 rated at 370 gross or Advertized.   ( LTI ).  1972  But once they converted to SAE NET. Even   The Corvette dropped to 160. 
       Later Corvettes with EFI  did climb up from that. ( I owned a 1986 )  But those are pretty pricey engines.  Not saying that it never happens. But  the cost for one of those to stick in a 4200 pound 4 door sedan?   Really?   Frankly I've never seen it done.  I see mostly Target masters and junkyard engines. 
  Someone could do it I suppose.  

Um.... no. they are not "pricey engines". They're standard SBC shortblocks, aluminum heads and roller cams. I rebuilt/upgraded the L98 in my 88 for about the same money it cost to build any of the other half dozen SBC engines I've put together. Usually under $1000. 

Please for the love of all that is good stop making E36 M3 up to sound smart. You're terrible at it 

In reply to bobzilla :

How many EFI engines have you swapped in a Jag?   
   OK how many EFI engines have you seen in a Jag?  
 Then finally if you bought that engine   In good running shape and attached transmission what would it cost?  
    Go on Co- Part for numbers then look up a 4.2  Jag  engine. 

The only carb'd engine I've seen in a jag was on Road Kill. All the others were L98, LT1 or LSx engines. and why would I worry about a 4.2 jag cost when I could have a 300hp/350tq SBC for next to nothing? transmissions are plentiful. 4.2 jag engine is old, outdated and not something the vast majority of hot rodders know anything about. 

Donor van (engine, trans and harness) can be had for under a grand. 

Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to MotorsportsGordon :
   
You know in my whole life I've never seen a swapped Jaguar with anything except a 4 barrel on it. Never fuel injection. All but one of those 4 barrels was a Quadrajet  ( Holley the exception) 
    
     While I'm sure I haven't seen every swapped Jaguar  I think until I start seeing EFI  on swapped Jags.  I'm still probably right for most swaps.   

Small block, fuel injected, way more than 160 horsepower.  Literally the first post of this thread.

 

Whatever Robbie was trying to do with the title, I think he did it! :-)

Frenchy, are you going to stop claiming Jags with v8s are all carbed? Since it's been proven and showed to you in photo form here?

I hope you don't get too mad about the piling on here, it's just so easy. Let's get back to you coming to the challenge. Move on past the swap vs original Jag questions and start building.

In reply to bobzilla :

You'd really put a high mileage engine in a Jag?
       I've pulled an engine out of a van.  Maybe it's my age but I'll never do it again.  It didn't go back in.  
       You're talking about swapping 170/ hp  up to 314/ hp to put 300 horsepower in?   
      Just because you "know" Chevy's? 
  They are all the same.  Suck squeeze bang blow except the Jag is easier to work on.  Spark plugs are right on top either 6 or 12 cylinder.  Same with distributor. Uses American sized wrenches and bolts. Right up to when Ford bought them , then they used them French sizes. 
      Jaguar got OBD2 about the same time as everybody else. So plug in and have it 'splain what's broke.  Those earlier EFI's are pretty much the same. So normal trouble shooting solved those. 
    Incidentally  I had 50 V12's  of those 2 were bad.   One the oil change guy failed to tighten the oil filter and the owner drove it home without oil.  However when  I pulled it apart the crank was still good.  ( no bearings left but the crank is hardened st the factory.).  
 The other one the driver drove it without water.   it dropped several valve seats. 
        The other 48 were still good.  Most of these were Chevy engine swaps. 
       
   

In reply to frenchyd :

The big thing is that you know and understand the Jag engines.  If someone wants to start modifying, or has one with a damaged engine for whatever reason and a swap is in the cards, they're going to swap in something either that they think is cool, or that they understand and know how to work with.  As far as swapping in a used engine with some miles on it, it depends on the engine in question, how well its condition can be assessed, and what the end goal of the swap is. 

In reply to frenchyd :

Well first of all I'm not stupid enough to buy a jag (sorry Robbie). But yeah, I'd take a high mile lsx engine and stuff it in there. Throw a cam and tune and call it a day with 350hp that will run for the next 300k miles. 
 

and duh, the van is a donor. It's the cheapest way to get everything you need in one package. Of course nothing is going back in. It's getting cut up and scrapped. Why would I give two E36 M3s if it's hard to put an engine back in? Pull the grille and core support and pull it out. It's not hard. 

dculberson said:

Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to MotorsportsGordon :
   
You know in my whole life I've never seen a swapped Jaguar with anything except a 4 barrel on it. Never fuel injection. All but one of those 4 barrels was a Quadrajet  ( Holley the exception) 
    
     While I'm sure I haven't seen every swapped Jaguar  I think until I start seeing EFI  on swapped Jags.  I'm still probably right for most swaps.   

Small block, fuel injected, way more than 160 horsepower.  Literally the first post of this thread.

 

Whatever Robbie was trying to do with the title, I think he did it! :-)

Frenchy, are you going to stop claiming Jags with v8s are all carbed? Since it's been proven and showed to you in photo form here?

I hope you don't get too mad about the piling on here, it's just so easy. Let's get back to you coming to the challenge. Move on past the swap vs original Jag questions and start building.

Is that the exception that proves the rule?  
  Frankly it costs a lot ( time and money). to swap an engine in.   Bet reaching down to change those spark plugs is really hard on your hands if the engine has been run recently. 
 

                     HOWEVER ! 

   I'm pulling a Jaguar 6  cylinder engine out.  To replace it.  

frenchyd said:

In reply to MotorsportsGordon :

Not sure how you'd get those numbers.  Since that's not what was published back in the day.  
  I look up horsepower on a 1969 Impala recently and they had 3 numbers.  
 250 ( I assume a 2 barrel?  255 4 barrel ? and 300 high compression good  heads?   
 But those were all Gross numbers. 
  Incidentally  the 4.2 Jaguar had an advertized    gross horsepower of 265  but when it was net rated it was 170. 

I'll remind you, in my life I've bought  and paid for 22 new Chevy's  several used. ( I'm only guessing but I think less than 10)   I obviously like Chevy's   When I got out of the Navy I sold new Chevy's and was very successful. I also did it 40 years later and again was successful.  I've raced a Corvette  and  built 6 small blocks for racing. 
   
You know in my whole life I've never seen a swapped Jaguar with anything except a 4 barrel on it. Never fuel injection. All but one of those 4 barrels was a Quadrajet  ( Holley the exception) 
    
     While I'm sure I haven't seen every swapped Jaguar  I think until I start seeing EFI  on swapped Jags.  I'm still probably right for most swaps.   
One final point.    I'm a racer. I've been doing it since 1962. I did have 1 circle track racer that was a 55 Chevy but  the engine was a 1955 Cadillac Eldorado 

  Anyway most of my racing has been vintage sports car racing. When I watch video's I see the 6 cylinder Jag  dicing it out with the 454Corvettes. Not always winning but really 454+ against 258?   
    Then there is when the V12 ( 326 ) took on  the 350 Corvettes  in SCCA B Production. Both were in the front row. And the V12 won.  
      It also won plenty in IMSA Racing. In the heavier XJS.  If you really want to see what the V12 is like against small block Chevy's and Fords  watch the 1985 Batherst in Australia. 

Those are the factory published numbers for corvettes,in the 350 l48 was 300 hp and 270 gross depending on compression ratio. Oh those engines running at Bathurst weren't Chevy they are actual Holden engines the 308 completely different design done down under. Both the sbc and the Holden raced against each other in f5000 there and the Chevy made more power.

https://corvettestory.com/specs/1972-Corvette-specs-options.php
https://corvettestory.com/specs/1980-Corvette-specs-options.php

heck the 305 that California got in 1980 made 180 hp net

bobzilla said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) :

I think you are confusing gross horsepower with Net horsepower. 
     Yes the Corvettes had one 350 rated at 370 gross or Advertized.   ( LTI ).  1972  But once they converted to SAE NET. Even   The Corvette dropped to 160. 
       Later Corvettes with EFI  did climb up from that. ( I owned a 1986 )  But those are pretty pricey engines.  Not saying that it never happens. But  the cost for one of those to stick in a 4200 pound 4 door sedan?   Really?   Frankly I've never seen it done.  I see mostly Target masters and junkyard engines. 
  Someone could do it I suppose.  

Um.... no. they are not "pricey engines". They're standard SBC shortblocks, aluminum heads and roller cams. I rebuilt/upgraded the L98 in my 88 for about the same money it cost to build any of the other half dozen SBC engines I've put together. Usually under $1000. 

Please for the love of all that is good stop making E36 M3 up to sound smart. You're terrible at it 

L98 have lots of torque they are used in hot rods,,street rods,resto mods,etc all the time.