Does this car exist?

Javelin wrote: I've done 1500 miles in the last 5 days and it gave me a lot of time to think about what I want in my next car. Then I couldn't think of the answer! It has to have *all* of the following: 1. Be a 4-door sedan or 5-door wagon 2. Rear wheel drive 3. Manual transmission with a clutch pedal 4. Be less than 25 years old. 5. NOT MacPherson front suspension! That last one is what's killing me, especially for anything that's not over 25 years old. Any ideas?

A full size crew cab pickup checks all those boxes.

4 doors? Yep. Plus a bed. Put a topper on if you want a wagon.
Rear drive? Sure. Can also have with selectable 4WD.
Manual trans with a clutch pedal? I hope you hate 6 speeds, since all of the big three have the 6 speed as an option for most years 00-08 or so.
Less than 25 years old? The good diesel trucks are from the early to mid 00s (03 and down Fords, 07 and down Chevys and Dodges)
Not MacPherson Strut? Straight axle on the 4WDs with leafs or link/coil fronts on Fords and Dodges, IFS on all GMs and RWD Fords and Dodges.

Plus with a diesel, a programmer and an exhaust, they are a total hoot to drive. Who could have thought such a big beast could knock down 14s and 20 MPG with no real work?

There ya go.

Doing a lot of long drives, my C5 sits at home and my 02 Powerstroke gets me there. Tough to beat the comfort of a Lariat Crew Cab.

In reply to 93gsxturbo:

I need a truck like I need a third well... you know. That would enable me to drag home all the cars I want, which would probably be bad for my marriage. And wallet.

The dodge magnum/charger and 300c meet your criteria except the manual trans and I am sure that can be fixed.

The RX-8 handling is phenomenal! I just wish you could make more power out of the rotary without really risking blowing it up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_RX-8

The front wheels feature classic independent double wishbone suspension, while the rear are independent multi-link. Weight is trimmed through the use of materials such as aluminium and plastic for several body panels. The rest of the body is steel, save for the plastic front and rear bumpers. The manual gearbox model uses a carbon fiber composite driveshaft to reduce the rotational mass (moment of inertia) connected to the engine. Power is sent to the rear wheels via a Torsen limited slip differential for improved handling.

Javelin wrote:

Kenny_McCormic wrote: Something wrong with struts?

Yes, everything. I'm tired of the horrific handling and feeling of them in FWD and RWD applications. They were designed to be cheap, not good. I was amazed at how much better my berking *Javelin* steered than a new 911.

I think you're doing it wrong ...

Javelin wrote: In reply to clutchsmoke: Are they wishbone? I thought they were related to the NC Miata, which is a strut, or am I mistaken? RX-8 would definitely tick all the right buttons...

NC Miata is double wishbone front, multilink rear...

DaewooOfDeath wrote:

Javelin wrote:

Kenny_McCormic wrote: Something wrong with struts?

Yes, everything. I'm tired of the horrific handling and feeling of them in FWD and RWD applications. They were designed to be cheap, not good. I was amazed at how much better my berking *Javelin* steered than a new 911.

I think you're doing it wrong ...

I didn't say it was faster or handled better or any other claims. Very simple, just the steering is better. And no, I'm not doing it wrong. A compromised cheap setup to save a few bucks will not steer better than a setup that was originally designed for good road feel and crisp turn-in. And again, this is a 996. The OG air-cooled 911's have wonderful steering.

In reply to clutchsmoke:

Man, that is some good news! It's not a "traditional" 4-door, but since we need it for the kiddo anyway, the suicide doors are probably better. I loved the few RX-8's I've driven and miss both of my RX-7's, so this is probably my winner. Now, to save the pennies...

I drive a 964 - mac-struts, LOVE the steering. I think you're missing the fact that air-cooled 911's (renowned for their steering feel) ARE mac-strut cars.

I drive a well-aligned '98 328i with fresh bushings and struts - LOVE the steering.

I miss my E36 M3's for the same reasons.

Each to their own.... but I've yet to meet anyone who drove a Cayman and then said "wow, this car sure would be better if it didn't have Mac-struts".

njansenv wrote: I drive a 964 - mac-struts, LOVE the steering. I think you're missing the fact that air-cooled 911's (renowned for their steering feel) ARE mac-strut cars.

Truth. The classic 911 is a Macstrut car. It just uses torsion bars instead of coil springs.

93EXCivic wrote:

njansenv wrote: I drive a 964 - mac-struts, LOVE the steering. I think you're missing the fact that air-cooled 911's (renowned for their steering feel) ARE mac-strut cars.

Truth. The classic 911 is a Macstrut car. It just uses torsion bars instead of coil springs.

No, not really. The classic 911 is rear-steer with an actual lower a-arm with captured torsion bars. The only piece that actually moves when you turn the wheel is the strut/spindle itself. The torsion bar provides no resistance and steering pulling from behind the suspension helps with feel and feedback.

A MacPherson strut specifically has a coil spring around it which rides in a rotating top hat, which is where the steering difficulty and other bad characteristics come from. When you turn the wheel, the spring provides some resistance and you are turning a strut, the spring, and a much larger top hat/bearing. Additionally, most MacStrut suspensions are front-steer for packaging and cost reasons.

By taking away that movement and binding, it creates a much different suspension with vastly different characteristics. This is also why the additional link/joint in the strut setup on the Revo-Knuckle and HyPer Struts actually work so much better, they eliminate turning that whole strut/spring combo when you move the wheel.

Front steer is superior to rear steer, though.

When the sping is not on the strut, it is usually called a "modified MacPherson strut", like on 3rd-gen F-bodies, and Fox-bodies,

Javelin wrote: In reply to motomoron: Broken pavement, potholes, and off-camber crowned highways, too? I haven't been happy with any MacStrut car in the last 3 years, so I think I got ruined somehow.

I live essentially in Washington DC, have driven all over the world, and the pavement here is comically bad. Of all our cars, the 525iT/sport is the most composed on craptastic pavement. This includes a B4 body Audi A4 2.8 Q w/ Bilstein HDs + Vogtland 1" springs and my '01 Tacoma w/ Pre-runner pack and 265/75-16 Michelin LTX A/T2 tires.

I'm picky about suspension and vehicle dynamics - I've spent a metric E36 M3-ton on it on all manner of cars - I'd drive one of these at minimum.

Did I mention I can do an honest 30 mpg in this big, comfortable, great handling, great looking car?

Um. I just checked - coilsprings, Mac struts, 964. I seem to remember hearing accolades on BMW steering feel as well - so it's not just me that thinks they can be well implemented.

I am curious as to how front vs. rear steer matters....

Javelin wrote:

93EXCivic wrote:

njansenv wrote: I drive a 964 - mac-struts, LOVE the steering. I think you're missing the fact that air-cooled 911's (renowned for their steering feel) ARE mac-strut cars.

Truth. The classic 911 is a Macstrut car. It just uses torsion bars instead of coil springs.

No, not really. The classic 911 is rear-steer with an actual lower a-arm with captured torsion bars. The only piece that actually moves when you turn the wheel is the strut/spindle itself. The torsion bar provides no resistance and steering pulling from behind the suspension helps with feel and feedback. A MacPherson strut specifically has a coil spring around it which rides in a rotating top hat, which is where the steering difficulty and other bad characteristics come from. When you turn the wheel, the spring provides some resistance and you are turning a strut, the spring, and a much larger top hat/bearing. Additionally, most MacStrut suspensions are front-steer for packaging and cost reasons. By taking away that movement and binding, it creates a much different suspension with vastly different characteristics. This is also why the additional link/joint in the strut setup on the Revo-Knuckle and HyPer Struts actually work so much better, they eliminate turning that whole strut/spring combo when you move the wheel.

Javelin wrote: A MacPherson strut specifically has a coil spring around it which rides in a rotating top hat, which is where the steering difficulty and other bad characteristics come from.

The vehicle dynamics books I have read always just say that a Macstrut suspension is just one where the steering pivots around the axis of the strut. The lack or not of a coil spring has nothing to do with it.

93EXCivic wrote:

Javelin wrote: A MacPherson strut specifically has a coil spring around it which rides in a rotating top hat, which is where the steering difficulty and other bad characteristics come from.

The vehicle dynamics books I have read always just say that a Macstrut suspension is just one where the steering pivots around the axis of the strut. The lack or not of a coil spring has nothing to do with it.

I've always read it the other way. It's either a MacPherson strut, or it's "modified", or some other such nomenclature (HyPer, RevoKnuckle, etc).

In reply to njansenv:

I didn't say it couldn't be tuned, I said I was tired of driving them. Why live with compromises when a better mousetrap already exists?

Fits all of your requirements, not 25 years old until next year, 4 doors, rwd and they are almost all 5 speed manual. Cheaper and easier to maintain than a 944 too, and reliable if they aren't already in terrible shape before you buy it.

Get over the RWD requirement and get a C900 Saab? Meets everything else... you could even get the 5-door hatch ;-)

In reply to Travis_K:

Hmmm, maybe I should change it to "over 30" so I could use Collector plates! That's a sweet car...

In reply to Gearhead_42:

No, just, no. I will not "get over" FWD.

Javelin wrote: In reply to Travis_K: Hmmm, maybe I should change it to "over 30" so I could use Collector plates! That's a *sweet* car...

They made them from 87-89, so even the first ones have a couple more years for that. The only really bad things about them are the headlights are horrible unless you spend ~$600 or so for euro lights, you can't buy window regulators new anymore as far as I know, along with any parts for the heater or clutch throwout bearings. Other than that I liked the one I used to have, I sold it because I couldn't find the parts to fix the heater, the headlights were too bad to use it at night and it needed the input shaft seal on the transmission replaced. I put about 45k miles on it and it only had one mechanical failure that kept it from being driven so I didn't think that was too bad. They are easier than most cars to work on too.

Javelin wrote: In reply to njansenv: I didn't say it couldn't be tuned, I said I was tired of driving them. Why live with compromises when a better mousetrap already exists?

You have to define "better" - better packaging? Lighter weight? Simpler? Lower cost? The mac strut is better depending upon the metrics chosen.

Javelin wrote:

DaewooOfDeath wrote:

Javelin wrote:

Kenny_McCormic wrote: Something wrong with struts?

Yes, everything. I'm tired of the horrific handling and feeling of them in FWD and RWD applications. They were designed to be cheap, not good. I was amazed at how much better my berking *Javelin* steered than a new 911.

I think you're doing it wrong ...

I didn't say it was faster or handled better or any other claims. Very simple, just the steering is better. And no, I'm not doing it wrong. A compromised cheap setup to save a few bucks will not steer better than a setup that was originally designed for good road feel and crisp turn-in. And again, this is a 996. The OG air-cooled 911's have wonderful steering.

1968 911 front suspension here. ^ Looks like a strut to me.