Drove a 365hp, 420lbs of torque Ford F150 Ecoboost today...

alfadriver wrote:

93EXCivic wrote: In reply to alfadriver: But leaving things the way they are is so freaking boring. Hot rodding is part of the American tradition.

And? If you want to hot rod, fine- sign the paper telling the world that you will not accept any warranty in any way for your modifications. And that you will not bitch about Honda when you grenade their S2000 motor when you screwed with the calibration.

I would have no problem with a manufacture rejecting a warranty if I modified a car.

alfadriver wrote:

93EXCivic wrote: In reply to alfadriver: Why do you care if people are hacking it?

Ignoring the part that it's against the law.... Engines are tuned is a specific way for a specific reason, if you think you can do "better"- I can gauruntee that you will break something else. And most of the times when someone hacks and breaks, they then turn the car back to the dealer and expect to fix it under warranty. Many of them also spout how bad the parts are on line, too- when they were the cause of the failure, not the OEM. The goal is to make as much power as possible all the time, AND make the car last more than 150k miles (since that's the emissions requirements) for basic stuff, and far more than that for structural stuff.

That's only part of the story.

Computer tunes have to be dumbed down to last, but also take into consideration many other things like drivability, poor fuel, load , and not necessarily make the most power. Some manufacturers tunes are not very good, while others are excellent. It is possible to make more power for your given situation, but not feasible for the manufacturers to tune for individual situations. For instance, if I know I'll always use premium fuel, I can run more aggressive timing everywhere, make much better power, and fuel economy. In other words, it is possible to make changes responsibly.

From what I've heard, GM dealers in the US are checking everything now for changes, and applying warranty accordingly, but it is possible to return the tune back to stock (at least on GM vehicles) without them knowing.

In reply to 93EXCivic:

You are a rare one. We were following SHO's being modified, and one guy grenaded is car at the drag strip. And then took it to the dealer to cover. Which they had to do, since the flash was back to original, and there was no obvious proof of mods. His hacking cost at least $10k.

And I remember the Mitsu guy who had his hacking failures not covered, and the internet fights that started over that. (although, credit to the 'net that the dealer found out that he was hacking, and denied his coverage via that).

Solution: Wait until it's out of warranty to buy it.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Solution: Wait until it's out of warranty to buy it.

Or to modify it.

Honestly, I have no plans to modify mine, it's pretty great in stock form. Hell, I even paid for an extended warranty, which I have never done before. But, given that this is a brand-new (albiet very throughly tested) engine, and more importantly, all the electronic gizmos on the truck, I decided to do it. Which means I won't need it, of course

Having said that, I did put a tuner on my previous (07) F-150, and picked up about 1 mpg and an honest (dragstrip-verified) 3 tenths in the quarter mile. So I know there are advantages to be had, at least with the 5.4. And by the way, I changed my own plugs in that truck, and it wasn't THAT bad. We had a thread about it recently on here, actually.

The whole argument about how it was built a certain way for a reason really frustrates me. As Zomby said, factory tunes are very conservative. Every part and tune in a car is designed to a theoretical limit and then a safety factor is applied. The factory has to assume that some clown is going to drive like a maniac across the desert with AC on full blast on crappy gas. They are not pushing the limit of maximum power, that's for sure. So when you get a "tune" on your car it usually removes some of the safety nets and requires higher octane gas to get more power. I totally agree that a dealership should void a warranty if they can prove something aftermarket broke it but to assume you can't improve is just false.

miatame wrote: The whole argument about how it was built a certain way for a reason really frustrates me. As Zomby said, factory tunes are very conservative. Every part and tune in a car is designed to a theoretical limit and then a safety factor is applied. The factory has to assume that some clown is going to drive like a maniac across the desert with AC on full blast on crappy gas. They are not pushing the limit of maximum power, that's for sure. So when you get a "tune" on your car it usually removes some of the safety nets and requires higher octane gas to get more power. I totally agree that a dealership should void a warranty if they can prove something aftermarket broke it but to assume you can't improve is just false.

Which aftermarket "tune"? That methhead that lives down the street form me? And even the best tuning houses have had big boo boo's (witness any aftermarket tuning comparo in any enthusiast mag over the last 20 years- half the cars blow up). Manufacturers take on hundreds of millions of dollars in financial liability based of their vehicles ability to reliably deal with the fact "some clown is going to drive like a maniac across the desert with AC on full blast on crappy gas." And I'll add "while towing a trailer with under-inflated tires while high on Rockstars with the cruise control set on 80 into a 40 mph headwind with the stereo cranked and the windows open climbing baker pass over and over for 4 years". I have no trouble at all seeing why manufacturers are not in the business of covering somebody else's idea of how their carefully engineered and costed product should work, and personally have no interest in paying more for new cars because the OEMs start needing to do really expensive mechanical failure analysis on 10s of thousands of trucks and cars that get "improved" while under warranty in order to "prove" some fantastic new twist on how to wreck something.

After the warranty is up, have at it! Or if you can afford to take responsibility for blowing warrantied E36 M3 up, have at it!!

Like anything else, it can be done responsibly, or irresponsibly.

mguar wrote: Do not worry about service work. when you go to your nearby dealer for service just explain that you just moved into the neighborhood.. (you don't need to tell him it was 20 years ago) They don't care.. Profit at dealerships comes not from new vehicle sales but parts, service, and used car sales.. They will treat you just the same as if you bought it there.. if they fail to do that a simple phone call to the zone office will correct the problem and likely get you a bonus besides (next oil change free or jacket etc.) All Ford Dealerships are trying very hard to get awards for best service.. It's a really big deal. It determines a whole lot of things such as allotment of scarce new vehicles (Mustang Shelby GT500 for example that sells for $10,000 over list price)

SSSSHHHHH!!!!! You're giving away all our secrets!!!!

LOL Really, everything he said is true. Follow it to the letter. This being said from another Ford Dealership employee.

Zomby woof wrote: Like anything else, it can be done responsibly, or irresponsibly.

I have yet to see one done responsibly. Which would mean at least some dyno time...

Most of the hacks I've seen are just that- they think they know what to adjust to "fix" something- not actually knowing that there's a table already in there which will tell you the best spark- the hackers will alter until they see a reaction, and hope for the best. Just as much as assuming you are taking the safety net off for max a/c on a hot day towing a car- when in reality, that's totally adjusted for, so if it's 50F, clear, and not towing- you'd get the best compromise.

I'm sorry, I must have mis-typed into my browser this morning. I thought this was Grassroots Motorsports, a forum for people who modify their cars.

Two things that are relevant to this thread's direction:

The different power ratings in the various forms of 3.5 Ecoboost, as of this writing, are all down to the computer tuning. (The proposed 420hp version for the Mustang will have different internals) Now, WHY they are tuned the way they are is a different matter. You need to figure that an SUV or a car are going to see different load factors than a truck, for example. And, oddly enough, the lowest rated version is also the only one without an oil cooler.

The computers have a non-resettable bit that keeps track of when and how many times it's been reflashed. So, break the car, then "deflash" it, the service department WILL know.

alfadriver wrote:

Zomby woof wrote: Like anything else, it can be done responsibly, or irresponsibly.

I have yet to see one done responsibly. Which would mean at least *some* dyno time... Most of the hacks I've seen are just that- they think they know what to adjust to "fix" something- not actually knowing that there's a table already in there which will tell you the best spark- the hackers will alter until they see a reaction, and hope for the best. Just as much as assuming you are taking the safety net off for max a/c on a hot day towing a car- when in reality, that's totally adjusted for, so if it's 50F, clear, and not towing- you'd get the best compromise.

So if I have a car with no warranty, mess with it, blow it up, and pay for the fix out of my own pocket you have no problem with that? You just care if people blow their stuff up and expect a warranty fix? I can live with that. The only car I've ever owned with a warranty is my RX8 and I'm not messing with anything on that until after the warranty period. I want nothing to stop the dealer from fixing my engine if (when) the apex seals blow.

Javelin wrote: I'm sorry, I must have mis-typed into my browser this morning. I thought this was Grassroots Motorsports, a forum for people who modify their cars.

No, this is a "Made in the US", "X doesn't last the way it used to" political forum

Knurled wrote: All we need is a CAN simulator, something to wake the computer up and feed it the signals it needs (vehicle speed and coolant temp from the instrument cluster, if that's how it goes, etc). Screw MegaSquirt - I want MegaCAN. Editing the computer won't do jack if the computer doesn't physically have the inputs it needs for some things and relies on the network bus(es) for the data. And most of them don't power up until the CAN tells them to.

The new version of the Hydra Nemesis will have CAN interface capabilities soon. Of course, it's one thing to talk the language, it's something else to address and communicate with individual components.

Rufledt wrote:

alfadriver wrote:

Zomby woof wrote: Like anything else, it can be done responsibly, or irresponsibly.

I have yet to see one done responsibly. Which would mean at least *some* dyno time... Most of the hacks I've seen are just that- they think they know what to adjust to "fix" something- not actually knowing that there's a table already in there which will tell you the best spark- the hackers will alter until they see a reaction, and hope for the best. Just as much as assuming you are taking the safety net off for max a/c on a hot day towing a car- when in reality, that's totally adjusted for, so if it's 50F, clear, and not towing- you'd get the best compromise.

So if I have a car with no warranty, mess with it, blow it up, and pay for the fix out of my own pocket you have no problem with that? You just care if people blow their stuff up and expect a warranty fix? I can live with that. The only car I've ever owned with a warranty is my RX8 and I'm not messing with anything on that until after the warranty period. I want nothing to stop the dealer from fixing my engine if (when) the apex seals blow.

that, and the normal publicity that goes with it, yes. I'll leave the ilegalities to the company that does the tuning.

Knurled wrote: Two things that are relevant to this thread's direction: The different power ratings in the various forms of 3.5 Ecoboost, as of this writing, are all down to the computer tuning. (The proposed 420hp version for the Mustang will have different internals) Now, WHY they are tuned the way they are is a different matter. You need to figure that an SUV or a car are going to see different load factors than a truck, for example. And, oddly enough, the lowest rated version is also the only one without an oil cooler. The computers have a non-resettable bit that keeps track of when and how many times it's been reflashed. So, break the car, then "deflash" it, the service department WILL know.

Not really. What you find in a SHO/MKS/Flex/MKT isn't the same motor that you find in the F150. Block is the same- but other than that, nothing is the same- heads, intake, exhaust, cams, turbos, fuel system, etc.

For 420hp on a street motor, there are a few key items that need to change outside of the structure. And I have no idea if that's a real engine, or a proposal- since I've never actually heard of a boosted Mustang V6, outsisde of the aftermarket.

As for the last item, they should have that.

To the OP, I've managed to get barely 20mpg driving home and back in the summer. At 75mph. Pretty sweet for a 6000lb truck at highway speeds, and with that huge of body.

Regardless of how you feel about people tuning their own vehicles, your original assertion that these swaps would never be reasonable is almost certainly wrong. How warranty work became part of the discussion, I have no idea.

Zomby woof wrote: Regardless of how you feel about people tuning their own vehicles, your original assertion that these swaps would never be reasonable is almost certainly wrong. How warranty work became part of the discussion, I have no idea.

And I still disagree, since it involves a lot of rework to get the security systems to not work. Possible, sure.

It's easy to take motor out and put in.

It's not easy to make ECU ignore all other stuff. PITA. And needing things that make swap not reasonable.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to 93EXCivic: You are a rare one.

So your logic is that because some asshats try and warranty their mess ups, everyone else should have to suffer?

Hookay.

Beyond that, 20mpg at 75mph isn't very impressive. My father's '04 GMC 1/2 ton crew 4x4 with a TUNE (ha! And I did it myself to boot) gets that with only the 4L60E. What did the tune involve? Getting rid of all of the "torque management" settings that made the truck drive like garbage. When I ask the truck to do something, it better do what I want, not "think" about doing what I want and only provide full torque at XXXXrpm in 2nd gear. When I apply the gas from a stop, I don't want it to think about how much power it should give me, and then suddenly give me more so the truck lurches away from where it was stopped.

HiTempguy wrote:

alfadriver wrote: In reply to 93EXCivic: You are a rare one.

So your logic is that because some asshats try and warranty their mess ups, everyone else should have to suffer? Hookay.

Yup. Since most hackers are just that. Even ones who sell the stuff as some kind of improvement.

It's not easy to make ECU ignore all other stuff. PITA. And needing things that make swap not reasonable.

Like any new technology, a fix is just around the corner. It's not a problem with GM's, that I know for sure. If it is for Ford (and I doubt it is), it won't be soon.

When I apply the gas from a stop,

You mean, when you make a torque request?

One of the nicest things about modern engines is that stock power is enough a lot of the time now.

TAMU's $2011 challenge team would've KILLED to have 350 reliable horsepower in the Nismospeed Miata before competition. I made a thread about substituting a dead-stock GM LS7 for a Cosworth racing engine; one of its advantages would've been a gain in power.

If I were to put an Ecoboost 3.5 in a Miata or E30, I'd run it at stock boost pressure and timing. It would get me 300 hp/ton, and that's enough.

alfadriver wrote:

HiTempguy wrote:

alfadriver wrote: In reply to 93EXCivic: You are a rare one.

So your logic is that because some asshats try and warranty their mess ups, everyone else should have to suffer? Hookay.

Yup. Since most hackers are just that. Even ones who sell the stuff as some kind of improvement.

They make more power. How is that not an improvement?

alfadriver wrote:

Zomby woof wrote: Regardless of how you feel about people tuning their own vehicles, your original assertion that these swaps would never be reasonable is almost certainly wrong. How warranty work became part of the discussion, I have no idea.

And I still disagree, since it involves a lot of rework to get the security systems to not work. Possible, sure. It's easy to take motor out and put in. It's not easy to make ECU ignore all other stuff. PITA. And needing things that make swap not reasonable.

Megasquirt FTW.