Drove a Porch for the first time

In reply to Snrub :

You'll have to bear with amateur hour car stories, but I'll try.  Maybe just driving the ND around on the street didn't do anything amazing for me.  It's probably much better on track where you can explore those limits. 

The 911 is kind of hard for me to describe.  It was different than other cars I've driven.  Maybe it was the anticipation of always wanting to drive one that made it feel special.  Maybe I've read too many internet car stories, but it felt like the engine over the rear wheels made a difference.  Unfortunately, only that particular test drive featured any curvy sections of the road, but the car just went like nothing else I'd driven.  I liked how the engine sounded too and it had plenty of torque. 

This weekend I'll try and hunt down a Cayman to drive and see how that goes.  It will be easier once I've narrowed it down a little to start looking at the fly and drive options. 

The Lotus thing sounds like it would be worth trying too if they are similar money.  Aren't they a little lacking in terms of creature comforts for daily commuting?

Ingress / egress in a Lotus Elise can make a DD difficult.

I drove an early 911-------.

In reply to Groats :

Very lacking in creature comforts. That is one reason why purists like it.

gjz30075 said:

Ingress / egress in a Lotus Elise can make a DD difficult.

Yep it's surprisingly difficult. If a NASCAR cage is a 10 in difficulty, an Elise is like a 7 or 8. Not to mention that you'll never hit just one pedal at a time with regular shoes on. Driving shoes (or tiny feet) are absolutely required.

This is based on my experience with an S2. I don't know if an S3 might be better with the pedals, but it looks like ingress/egress might be worse.

It was a busy week at work, but I had time to gather all the specs and learn all the names and numbers, so the Porsche mystery is a little clearer.  Here is what I've gathered so far.  Prices were mostly taken from autotrader and may vary some.

This being GRM, I'm aiming for the sweet spot of price, performance, and reliability.  Still trying to figure out what that is, but it looks like the 997.2 base at around $40k might be the way to go if I can make the numbers work.  The other plan would be to get something in the $20k range and then work on an IMS upgrade.

Today I also test drove three cars, a 2008 base Cayman ($20k), a 2004 Carrera 4S ($30k), and a 2006 Carrera S ($43k).  The 2006 Carrera S was my favorite and kind of reinforced what I felt on that first drive.  This one was in better shape and hadn't been repainted like the first one.  I was fortunate to go on a drive with the dealership's general manager who was an extreme Porsche enthusiast.  He gave me a lot of helpful information about these cars.

Markwemple said earlier to go for a high mileage car for the IMS problem years.   What is considered high mileage, over 50k or over 80k?

ETA: I just realized how ridiculous $40k is.  You could have this instead.  Also added  how much extra insurance would be a month.

ETA: I just realized how ridiculous $40k is.  You could have this instead.  Also added  how much extra insurance would be a month.

Heck, for half that you could find a late model Mustang GT that will post better numbers than the Cayman you tested... but the driving experience is very different. If you really love driving the Porsches it's worth it to spend the money.  But if the money is worth more to you than the driving experience, there a bunch of compelling alternatives for lots cheaper.

In reply to nderwater :

Well put!

yupididit said:

 

Get a used 987.1 cayman S. Cheaper than all those options. They're reliable, yes even with an ims. I've never driven one that didn't have a short throw shifter mod lol 

The 987.2 is pricier and much more rare. 

You hit the nail on the head.  Drove a 2006 Cayman S with the manual just now and would have bought it if it wasn't yellow :(  Not sure if I could live with that.  Otherwise it did all the things right and had plenty of power.  I even managed to get it to go a little sideways going through an intersection.  So thankfully I can cross off the 911's and just focus on finding the right Cayman S.

In reply to nderwater :

You make a great point.  I need to try a Mustang GT and see how that goes.  I drove one of the 2011's when they first came out with the 5.0 and it scared me in a good way! 

The Porsches were just really fun to drive and really nice on the inside.  But in the 20k range there are a lot of interesting cars available, including various generations of M3's.  I'm just not sure if any of them are going to scratch this weird Porsche itch I've got lately.  I'm hoping to cure my car ADD for at least a year or two with something that just does it all right.

A friend of mine is a P-car guy, and I've had the opportunity to drive several of his cars over the years.  I've been driving Miatas for most of that time period, but recently bought a '17 Mustang GT, so I'll throw in my $.02...

The first Porsche my friend owned was a '99 996 Carerra.  It honestly didn't impress me all that much, but it was a Tiptronic.  A couple of years ago, he bought a '15 Cayman GTS with a PDK trans.  Now this one impressed me...  Great balance, great feel... it was like my Miata:  you could put it exactly where you wanted it, anytime you wanted to... except it had triple the HP.  Very nice car.  I've always been a shift-it-yourself kind of guy, but the PDK transmissions are really good.  There's no way I could shift as smoothly or quickly, especially under hard braking and clicking off three downshifts into a corner.

Late last year, he traded the Cayman on the Holy Grail:  a 2015 GT3....

OMG... I really don't think it could possibly get much better than this.  It's just an unbelievable car to drive... everything about it is just... perfect.  Precise, composed, thrilling acceleration, and the sound... flat 6 at 9000rpm.  It's as easy to drive as my NA track Miata, but it's brutally fast.  To quote a movie:  "if you have the means, I highly recommend it."

Unfortunately, in the real world, these things are way north of $100k and that's just not happening.  As far as P-cars, a Cayman S / GTS is a darn good car, or just pick the newest 911 you can afford.  Skip the manual and get a PDK... it's that good.

And Mustangs...  we recently traded my wife's NC Miata on a '17 Mustang GT with the Performance Pack.  It has impressed me with how good it really is.  The Performance Pack (previously called Track Pack) includes stiffer suspension, 19" wheels, big Brembos and a 3.73 LSD diff.  Up to 8.5/10ths (which is way fast on public roads) it's really good.  Only when pushed to the limit of adhesion does it get a little out of sorts.  IMHO it drives better than the C6 Z51 'Vette we had a few years ago.  It feels huge, but that's coming from a few years of Miatas, so I'll probably get used to it.  The aftermarket is incredible.  Full suspension from Ford Performance for $1300.  20hp/tq from a CAI and reflash that keeps the warranty and is CARB approved for $800.  It cruises the highway quietly at 80mph and gets 26mpg while doing it.  We paid $27k for ours, which had 4500 miles when we bought it, and the previous owner was nice enough to put a decent cat-back exhaust on as well.

If I won the lottery tomorrow, I'd buy a GT3.  Since that probably won't happen, I'm pretty happy with our Mustang.  We're still tracking our NA Miata, but the Mustang will get out there as well.  Probably not regularly, but gotta see what it's got on the track!

GameboyRMH said:

gjz30075 said:

Ingress / egress in a Lotus Elise can make a DD difficult.

Yep it's surprisingly difficult. If a NASCAR cage is a 10 in difficulty, an Elise is like a 7 or 8. Not to mention that you'll never hit just one pedal at a time with regular shoes on. Driving shoes (or tiny feet) are absolutely required.

This is based on my experience with an S2. I don't know if an S3 might be better with the pedals, but it looks like ingress/egress might be worse.

That's both surprising and disappointing. I drove many 100s of miles in a Lotus Esprit (think Bond "submarine car"). Same thing, you either need miniature feet or have to drive barefoot. I mean, it's still going on, seriously? Any car that doesn't allow for the realities of the human body seems to have missed the mark, and I really love the looks of the Elise.

Groats said:

yupididit said:

 

Get a used 987.1 cayman S. Cheaper than all those options. They're reliable, yes even with an ims. I've never driven one that didn't have a short throw shifter mod lol 

The 987.2 is pricier and much more rare. 

You hit the nail on the head.  Drove a 2006 Cayman S with the manual just now and would have bought it if it wasn't yellow :(  Not sure if I could live with that.  Otherwise it did all the things right and had plenty of power.  I even managed to get it to go a little sideways going through an intersection.  So thankfully I can cross off the 911's and just focus on finding the right Cayman S.

 I've never disappointed anyone with this recommendation. I've enabled the purchase of over 5 987 Cayman S LMAO!

@Groats, John Vanlandingham! There's a name I never thought I'd see on here. Don't be hanging around him to long or you'll be flogging XR4TIs and shopping for open class Maico motocross bikes.

As someone who instructs at PCA track days and has driven everything from 356 to GT3RS I will also tell you a Cayman is indeed wonderfully balanced. The first time I drove one I went out of the pit lane into turn one and then halfway around turn two looked over at the owner and said "this car is beautifully balanced". You can turn faster lap times in other cars but the Cayman is so effortless.

@Yupididit I drove 3 laps in a GT3RS, went faster than anyone else and I was driving mellow because it wasn't my 200K car. They are phenomenal.

In reply to Rodan :

I was hoping to find a PDK to test drive, but so far all the cars around here have been manuals :(  After doing more reading it looks like the motors in the 987.1 Caymans have weak connecting rods that may grenade on you at high RPM's.  Seems kind of crappy to get a car that revs past 7k but has to be driven under that.  This once again moves the price point back to the $40k mark for a car that has the issue fixed, which is unfortunate.

The new Mustang is really hard to beat.  I'll try and find one to drive tomorrow.  I'm a little worried that it will have some of the issues my 2000 Crammit Z28 has, namely being long and wide.  But I'll tell you what, nobody has almost run into me on the way into work in the Crammit like they did when I was commuting in the Miata.  I almost died every day in that thing!

In reply to Tom1200 :

Hehehe :)  JVL is crazy!  I had an open tab in firefox that I'd periodically refresh to see if any XR4TIs were for sale because of him.  He posts his address online (again, crazy!) and if you do a google street view you can see a handful of XR4TIs in various states of disrepair in front of his house. 

There is no good reason to buy a Porsche, unless you want a 911.  If you want a 911, there just aren’t many options.

It doesn’t make sense. It’s not supposed to.

In reply to Groats :

They have a Spec Cayman race car class that uses the 987.1 Cayman S MT. I’ve never heard of the con rods having issues. The 987.1 does need a deep sump or other oiling help to safely run Hoosiers or similar tires. 

PDK in the race mode sport plus (at least the latest software, and Cobb can now tweak it for older models) is better at shifting than top club level drivers and many pros leave it in auto, so it really does work incredibly well. It’s very quick and really improves the utilization of the engine. 

However, a manual really is more involving. Slower, yeah, but for the street that doesn’t matter as much so I still think a manual is typically better - especially for cars with around 400hp or less where a slow shift speed doesn’t have a huge impact on acceleration.

I own a PDK-only 991.2 911 turbo and a 986 Boxster track car / Spec Boxster project. Before this 911 I owned a 997.2 911 GTS MT. For the turbo, PDK fits the car better as the manual shifts really would feel like they happen in slow motion. And for a race car, PDK is the fastest and very effective - usually a 100lb weight penalty is assigned when they race with manuals in the same class. (They often need cooling FYI.) For the GTS the manual was delightful. For a street car I like the involvement.

The biggest downside to PDK is it’s electronically controlled with no force feedback, so when you click the paddle it triggers a shift command and nothing happens for 50 milliseconds, then it shifts with lightning speed. That’s not enough time delay to matter but it is enough to feel an emotional level of disconnection. With a motorcycle gearbox and an ECU/strain gauge quick shifter on the other hand, you kick the gear down and feel the transmission moving into gear and click into place while your foot is in motion. That gives the speed and the fulfillment. In relative terms PDK control feels a bit synthetic where the bike box is more visceral, involving, and direct. 

In reply to Tyler H :

I was racking my brain for something else.  Maybe import a RHD NSX from Japan?  That would certainly be an adventure.

In reply to ace37 :

That's good to know about the connecting rods.  Was reading over at rennlist something about them being weak and that you shouldn't rev the engine past 6k.  The folks over there seem a bit cautious.

The 2006 Cayman S I drove today is really starting to grow on me.  It was listed at 22k with "room to work with" according to the salesman.  I'm starting to get over the yellow paintjob too.

This is the ad.  The automatic is a typo.  A reasonable plan would be to hope to knock 2k off the price and then use that for a new clutch/IMS and be good with it?  Maybe have it plasti-dipped another color? 

I have a base 991 with PDK and I have never felt any emotional disconnection. 

PDK is the most awesome thing ever -- except for the part where Porsche got the controls backward....at least on the 991 and Panamera Turbo I've personally experienced.

Who pushes the stick forward for an upshift!??  That feels bass-ackwards to me.  Although I could reprogram my bass pretty quickly if I HAD to drive around a 991 regularly.

Agree that while the technology is great, the human interface is a little lacking.  Granted this may have been fixed, improved, or just different on models other than the two modern P-cars I've driven.

For a new Porsche, PDK would be a must for me.  For an old Porsche, manual transmission.

Groats said:

In reply to Tyler H :

I was racking my brain for something else.  Maybe import a RHD NSX from Japan?  That would certainly be an adventure.

In reply to ace37 :

That's good to know about the connecting rods.  Was reading over at rennlist something about them being weak and that you shouldn't rev the engine past 6k.  The folks over there seem a bit cautious.

The 2006 Cayman S I drove today is really starting to grow on me.  It was listed at 22k with "room to work with" according to the salesman.  I'm starting to get over the yellow paintjob too.

This is the ad.  The automatic is a typo.  A reasonable plan would be to hope to knock 2k off the price and then use that for a new clutch/IMS and be good with it?  Maybe have it plasti-dipped another color? 

I think it looks awesome in yellow. I like the 997 turbo wheels on it as well.

I don't recall the years, but certain years the IMS is NOT a serviceable item. To replace, you have to rebuild the motor.

ace37 said:

The biggest downside to PDK is it’s electronically controlled with no force feedback, so when you click the paddle it triggers a shift command and nothing happens for 50 milliseconds...

Do we have an eyeroll emoji?

In reply to Groats :

Go to the Porsche website and look for Porsche Search Agent. Enter the car that you are looking for and then every night at midnight, Porsche will send you an email listing every one for sale at every Porsche dealership in the country.