e30 vs e36

I know the two standard answers around here are Miata and e30. I have the first half correct. I have a 1990 Miata. The thing is as reliable as an anvil.

I bought a 1993 325i sedan when our twins were born and it has served me well. I don't need the room the e36 affords and I could have a coupe with back seats now. I find myself drawn to e30's. I know they can be set up well but all I have ever driven were tired and sloppy so I don't have an apples to apples comparison to guide me.

Anyway: Given the same state of preparedness, fresh bushings, shocks, bigger sways, good engine tune, etc. which would you all prefer as a daily driver part time autoX car? An e36 325i or a 87-91 e30 325i and why?

Having driven a nicely prepared E-30 (fresh bushings, shocks), I liked it very much. I haven't driven an E-36 in years, but man, that E-30 felt nice. Makes me consider adding one to the stable (which contains 2 Miata, a Suzuki VStrom 650 and the wife's Jetta TDI). Be nice if we both had vehicles that can seat 4.

have had both. prefer the e30 for size/weight advantage, & simplicity.

E-30. BUT if I already the E-36, I'd keep what i'm familiar with.

318ti.. best of both the E30 and the E36

mad_machine wrote: 318ti.. best of both the E30 and the E36

Or....the worst of both?

FWIW, I used to own a 97 318ti and currently own a 91 318is. Mechanically, they're very similar, but the e30 just feels better to me. I don't think it is better. I've just come to the conclusion that I like upright, boxy cars. And, yeah, I like the e30 better than my 90 Miata too -- for almost everything except autocross.

Bottom line: try a well sorted e30 out and see if it floats your boat. They're worth a closer look.

I'm going to stick my neck out a bit and say the E30 was probably the last of the 'real' driver's 3 series before BMW felt compelled to luxury them up and cheapen them elsewhere. I drove an E36 M3 and thought it was nice, but not as razor sharp as a 'good' E30. I think the E36 was the first of the timeline where isolating the road became more important and it's just not as crisp in the feedback department. Not to say it's a bad car by any stretch, but I think they are the dividing line between new and old school.

A stock E30 is pretty pedestrian. I also think stock 2002's are incredibly dull. However, with springs, shocks and sway bars it's a whole different ball game. I absolutely LOVE my E30 with the Spec suspension. It handles like a car half it's size/weight. The E36 crowd will blather on endlessly about the E30's "antiquated" suspension, but it's poppycock. It works just fine. Just make sure you get one with the M20 as any other engine in the E30 to me is gyping yourself of a wonderful experience.

OTOH, an E30 is going to be an old car these days with the usual creaks, groans, fluid leaks, rusty bolts and worn interior. You may just want to consider buying your E36 some nice gifts from the suspension section of your favorite mail order catalog.

ddavidv wrote: . The E36 crowd will blather on endlessly about the E30's "antiquated" suspension, but it's poppycock. It works just fine.

Those of us who drive the 318ti get that same response from the rest of the E36 crowd. Personally I like how lively and "tossable" the trailing arm suspension is. I find the rest of the E36 (except for the z3) to be dead as well.

As for engines.. I think I would be more likely to enjoy the M42 in the 318is than the M20.. yes it has less power, but it puts less weight into the nose of the car.. which is better for handling.

Now, if the two answers are always Miata and E30.. would an alternate combination answer be Z3?

ddavidv wrote: OTOH, an E30 is going to be an old car these days with the usual creaks, groans, fluid leaks, rusty bolts and worn interior. You may just want to consider buying your E36 some nice gifts from the suspension section of your favorite mail order catalog.

The older part doesn't bother me too much. My Miata is a 1990 and that is the approximate age of an E30 I might want.

My plan was to sell the E36 and use the money to get into as nice an E30 as possible. I'm thinking in the $3-5k range. That should get me a pretty solid car ,no?

I like the looks of the E30 better than the E36. It's just that the E36 is so capable and practical as a DD I wanted some input on living with an E30 day to day.

I had an 89-325is. I absolutely loved that car. I still regret getting rid of it. I will have another. Last week I was real tempted. I saw an 89 at a dealer in Greenville SC last week asking $3700. At first I thought it was high, but when i looked at it, it was clean. The more I thought about it....well you get the idea. Good thing I'm back home again and too far away to upset the homelife.

the only problems I see with living with an E30 as a daily.. rust. BMW more or less cured that problem in the E36.. but the E30 is still badly affected.

I say more or less as I do have some coming up on my Ti at the rear arch

I drive my '91 318i four door everyday. I just recently put in Ireland Engineering stage 3 race springs in it (315f/570r) and while it's stiff, it's not undrivable on the street. It's also an excuse not to take my car places with friends because if we did my rear tires would rub. With the springs and the bilstein sports, the car handles very well and is a lot of fun to drive.

Meh...I think there are some rusty E30s out there but they are not the majority. What rust I found on mine was minimal and easily remedied. They tend to be either clean or really rotten. Front floors, rockers, door bottoms are the usual spots.

The 4cyl guys love to toss that "lighter for better handling" out there all the time but I truly think the six cylinder cars are plenty well balanced. The engine is just uber-sweet in both sound and performance. Having owned mine, I would never take a 318 now.

ddavidv wrote: Meh...I think there are some rusty E30s out there but they are not the majority. What rust I found on mine was minimal and easily remedied. They tend to be either clean or really rotten. Front floors, rockers, door bottoms are the usual spots. The 4cyl guys love to toss that "lighter for better handling" out there all the time but I truly think the six cylinder cars are plenty well balanced. The engine is just uber-sweet in both sound and performance. Having owned mine, I would never take a 318 now.

I like both the m42/44 and the m20 -- I've driven several of each. The m20 is a sweet engine and responds better to mods, but a well-tuned m42 deserves a better wrap than it often gets. The deciding factor for me was a rock bottom price for my good-condition, rust-free 318is. I also don't mind the few extra mpg's in these days of $4-a-gallon gas as this car is my daily driver, not my autocross car. I agree with ddavidv though about the balance of the 4 vs. 6cyl. cars: the difference is probably negligible.

As for rust, there are plenty of early e36s with rusty rocker panels and floorboards in the northeast. The e30 is actually more rust-resistant than most cars its age. They are also very durable and I think this might explain why you see some badly rusted examples. The average car sees 8-9 years of daily driver duty before being retired to casual use. Many e30s have been out there for more than 250,000 miles and more than 20 salt-filled winters.

ddavidv wrote: The 4cyl guys love to toss that "lighter for better handling" out there all the time but I truly think the six cylinder cars are plenty well balanced. The engine is just uber-sweet in both sound and performance. Having owned mine, I would never take a 318 now.

depends on the 318.. the I or the IS? The 318i with it's sohc engine is not exactly a barnburner.. the Is with it's DOHC has long been considered the "baby m3".

And it is not only lightness that makes the 4 cylinders great, but the engine is practically behind the front wheels.

i vs is has nothing to do with the engine being sohc vs dohc. All 91 318's are dohc. All 83 - 85 are the m-10 sohc. This is for US models anyway.

I know they are.. I just did not know if you had sampled the SOHC or the higher performance BOHC version. There is only about a 30-35 hp difference between 318is and the 325

mad_machine wrote: I know they are.. I just did not know if you had sampled the SOHC or the higher performance BOHC version. There is only about a 30-35 hp difference between 318is and the 325

I have only ever driven the m20 cars. Yesterday I helped a buddy put the spec e30 shocks and springs on his 87 325is. He already has the sways and offset CABs. The front is still oem springs and shocks. We'll fix that next weekend.

Anyway, driving that car even in its uneven state told me all I need to know. I will be selling the e36 this fall or winter.

I looked at E30s for sale, and I didnt see many that could have been made into a reasonable daily driver for $3-5k unless than figure doesnt include purchasing a $2500 car. By that a mean they are nice cars, but are mostly in terrible shape by now, and often owned by people thatt dont take care of them at all. I think the seats in most of them suck too, the only ones I like are the houndstooth cloth ones.

that is true.. they have fallen into the hands of people who should not own nice cars.

shame really

mad_machine wrote:

ddavidv wrote: The 4cyl guys love to toss that "lighter for better handling" out there all the time but I truly think the six cylinder cars are plenty well balanced. The engine is just uber-sweet in both sound and performance. Having owned mine, I would never take a 318 now.

depends on the 318.. the I or the IS? The 318i with it's sohc engine is not exactly a barnburner.. the Is with it's DOHC has long been considered the "baby m3". And it is not only lightness that makes the 4 cylinders great, but the engine is practically behind the front wheels.

The '91 318i in the US came with the DOHC (M42); only in Europe was there a distinction between the 318i and 318is in the engine compartment.

Dwight - I think you'd be surprised at the performance of a proper M42. Mine's in good tune, chipped, and is pretty zippy...sufficiently zippy to give a friend in an E36 328i rather a hard time, which surprised us both, but that's another thread. I'm not going racing with it, but it pulls surprisingly well beyond 80mph. Stock M42 is 134hp,93 octane Mark D chip allegedly adds 12, slight bump from head shave, maybe 2 or 3? Say my car's somewhere around 145 (It was well maintained for it's entire life and is as fully documented as I've seen any car it's age). That's 23 off of the 168hp the M20's had - not exactly earth shattering....and I'd bet that many have lost a few HP over the years. The 318's do weigh less, due as much to lower content levels as to the engine itself. The 318i sedan is ~2630 lbs whereas a 325i is ~2840 lbs (per the owner's manual).

I'd recommend a clean E30 in a heartbeat. I have more in my car than it's worth, but it's something of a time-capsule car and a fine daily driver all at once, which I like.

FWIW, I came out of an E34 535i/5spd to the 318i and while I miss the torque and some of the de-luxe touches, it's more fun and not much slower. The M30 in its final iteration is one of my favorite engines of all time, btw. Those old things are just wonderful.

I do agree with you about not losing much to the bigger engined (and heavier) cars. My ti can easily keep up with the E36 323 and 325s.. and it makes the guys with the unmodified 328s think a bit.

It is a combination of low weight (2700 pounds) and a really rev happy rear differntial. (have to shift to 3rd at 50mph) that allows the car to seemingly pull harder than it would appear on paper. Especially when the people I am pulling on only look at the stats and see the 0 to 60 numbers. That extra shift to third really hurts the Ti's numbers.

ddavidv wrote: The 4cyl guys love to toss that "lighter for better handling" out there all the time but I truly think the six cylinder cars are plenty well balanced.

Yeah I see that thrown around all the time, It's not gonna make that much of a difference unless both cars are stock.

I'm pretty sure My M42 that just hit 230,000 doesn't have 134HP. My 17.2 at the drag strip proves that.

This is a tough question. The car that sold me on BMW in general was an E36 M3 with Konis/Springs and some wide, sticky rubber. IMO, that's just about the perfect daily driver - enough room for 4 people for a quick trip, good trunk space, a good amount of power and enough refinement not to be punishing.

Now, I've also owned three E30s - two 325i and one 318. I love the E30s, especially the one with freshenned bushings and shocks/springs vs. just the one with shocks/springs. But, there's no question in my mind that the E36 is an easier car to live with day to day. More refinement, physically bigger (though not too big) and a bigger trunk. Also a lot more sound deadening and fewer rattles.

Either way, they're both great cars. I've been away from mine for about two months now, and I can't wait to get them shipped out to where I live. Something about those cars gets under your skin.