Electric cars in the Winter

I have a 2015 Spark EV, cost $10K used with 50k miles, which at best has 80 miles range.

The longest commute I have for work only happens every other month, it is 33 miles, and 85% of the time I work from home. During the warmer seasons it is an easy drive without charging at the work site before the return trip.

Doing the 33 mile commute in early winter I need to preplan, warm it up while it is plugged in, and leave home after the ice has thawed from the windshield. Then drive with as little heat as I can be comfortable with. Fortunately I don't need to arrive at the worksite before noon.

I arrive with less about 15 miles range remaining, which will get become less as it gets colder, and then charge at a 240V charger for 2.5 hours before I get enough range to make it home. 

It's all about preplanning and I enjoy the challenge

Streetwiseguy said:

Didn't comment on any of that.  A gasoline powered vehicle also burns roughly twice as much fuel in commuting when its -30.  Just fed some heresay information to the herd.

This is subject to the same kinds of "it depends" factors that Keith mentioned for the EV.  Yes, it'll be super rich before it gets to full operating temperature, and that will take longer than it does in the summer.  There's no shortage of waste heat to get it there though. :)

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Streetwiseguy said:

Didn't comment on any of that.  A gasoline powered vehicle also burns roughly twice as much fuel in commuting when its -30.  Just fed some heresay information to the herd.

This is subject to the same kinds of "it depends" factors that Keith mentioned for the EV.  Yes, it'll be super rich before it gets to full operating temperature, and that will take longer than it does in the summer.  There's no shortage of waste heat to get it there though. :)

 

Oh, I've owned lots of cars that didn't produce enough waste heat on a 30 below day...

Separate but related issue that I have been trying to learn about...

I understand that plugging in when cold is best, so heaters can maintain battery temps above damaging conditions, but what about if you have to leave your vehicle parked for an extended time? Are the concerns regarding battery damage at sustained sub zero temps valid or overrated? What are the folks in the great white north doing when they have to leave their car at the airport for two weeks mid winter or they want to head to the winter cabin now that the mud has finally frozen over?

I really like the idea of pure ev or hybrid, but I also enjoy being in cold places. Range limits can be planned around, but turning into a brick (or just destroying hardware) in a frozen wonderland seems a bit harder to deal with.

frenchyd said:

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

15 minutes at a Tesla supercharger site gets you 150 miles.    

*In optimal scenario.

The charger, vehicle, and environment can all impact the rate that an EV can charge. If it's an older Supercharger, or your battery is too hot or too cold, or there's another vehicle charging when you get there, or the charge level of the battery isn't at the appropriate level for the fastest charging, then you get electrons at a slower rate.

In reply to bruceman :

You mention the struggle with early winter,park it or don't work during real winter?.

 I've worked to hard to justify not freezing in a car to save 10 bucks on fuel.

matthewmcl said:

 What are the folks in the great white north doing when they have to leave their car at the airport for two weeks mid winter or they want to head to the winter cabin now that the mud has finally frozen over?

From what I have read, leaving a current EV in long-term parking for weeks at a time is not a great idea even when it's warm.  This is probably one of those niche scenarios where you'll want to find another solution (cab, shuttle, Uber, even a 1-day, 1-way rental).

One of the long term lots in Denver offers charging stations at no extra cost so you can leave your car plugged in while it's sitting at the airport. But yeah, the long term airport abandonment scenario is a problem. You'd definitely want to know expected draw and make sure you left it with a lot of energy on board. 

Airport long term parking is so expensive any more is probably makes more sense to uber it from home to the airport. 

dculberson said:

Airport long term parking is so expensive any more is probably makes more sense to uber it from home to the airport. 

It's also a great way to accumulate dirt, door dings, and broken windows, at least around here.  I don't leave cars that I care about in airport long-term parking.

Streetwiseguy said:

 

Didn't comment on any of that.  A gasoline powered vehicle also burns roughly twice as much fuel in commuting when its -30.  Just fed some heresay information to the herd.

Only if your commute is under 5 miles.  I've commuted plenty of times when it was -20 here in MI, and I lost only 2-3mpg out of 30 on those days.  So lets not exaggerate that much.  If your commute is that short, yea, EV's are probably Ok- since you are not going to get that cold.  

But once gas engines fully warm up, their mileage is generally back to the same- having driven multiple tanks of fuel at once in the middle of winter.  And the heat you get all day long driving is very comfortable.

I'm ok if people want to convince themselves that EV's are fine in the winter- but lets not make gas engines worse just for the sake of making them worse.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

Rivian and Lucid are outstanding products?  Can you tell us your experience with them?  I'd love to know especially since you also have experience with Tesla too and how all 3 compare! 

In reply to kevlarcorolla :

I'll be learning when it is too cold for a 60+ mile return trip and I can use my wife's car (ICE) if I need to. Hopefully it is okay with my more frequent commute which is just 25 miles round trip.

I had a Focus EV for 3 years. I'd go from 85 miles ish in summer, to around 50 in winter. I was plugged into 110v for my charger, so preconditioning wasn't really possible. It'd try, but not really enough oomph. 50 miles of range was basically using the seat heaters on full, and just using the actual heat when the inside of the windshield would start to ice over. 

In reply to yupididit :

I haven't personally driven a Rivian, but I have friends there and have seen some of their products.  Not really related, but I was involved in a prototype build at the same place that built the pre production trucks used in 'the Long Way Up'.  Amazing shop I could name but don't know if I can.  Lucid on the other hand I've been in, driven for a short time (older prototype) and sat in both the front passenger and rear seats for drives, most recently just a couple of weeks ago at Lucid HQ in Newark CA.  I then followed this up by taking the Model S home  soon after (once we could charge it!!) for comparison.  Everything about the Lucid is so much better than the Tesla.  Tactile quality, fit and finish etc.  But as soon as you start moving the attention to detail compared to Tesla is night and day.  The ride is far better controlled, especially secondary ride motion.  I talked to their engineers and the work they went to on the suspension geometry to reduce impact harshness is amazing, and no I can't talk about that.  The car rides much better with the current coil springs compared to the model S with air ride.  And lets not even mention NVH and road noise.  Tesla is a joke to be in the back seat, and that's not just me bitching.  REad reviews, loo kat the Tesla forums, rear seat comfort and noise is obviously not importent to them. Very loud and harsh, not a pleasant place to spend more than a couple of miles, I'd hate to have to spend a few hours cross country back there.  The Lucid is true luxury in comparison.  

One more thing.  Having seen Lucid, Tesla, various GM and Nissan drive units sectioned side by side, the level of detail in the Lucid is amazing.  I am still stunned how they are putting that much torque through a lot of parts.  There is obviously some serious materials science in there that is way beyond my understanding.  Not surprising given their links to Formula E I guess.

Note, all my comments on Tesla are based on the S, which I happen to think is the best of their products.  I haven't been in a Y, but I have driven and spent time in an X and a 3.  One thing I can't accept with the 3 is the lack of physical buttons and interface for even basic functions.  I realize this is a personal pet peeve.  No, I'm not an anti tech person, but I think in general, and Tesla especially, have gone too far.  Proprioception works fine when you put your hand down to find a button, lever, etc.  But you just can't find virtual buttons on a screen meaning you need to look away.  The face lifted model S is just about OK, but the 3 is too far and I honestly hope the big bad government steps in at some points and insists that for human guided vehicles there are certain minimum functions that have to be controlled by real buttons to prevent needing to look away from the road all the time.  Again, that's a personal pet peeve and YMMV.  The fit and finish on both the X's I've driven would have left a 70's malaise era GM QC department embarrassed.  Actually, based on he poor panel fit between the glass/body and those X wing doors, I was impressed by how little wind noise there was, even though there was a lot.

I may talk a lot of E36 M3 about Tesla, but I have to hand it to Elon, I've given up trying to bet against him.  He somehow keeps coming through, doing things that the rest of the industry doesn't' believe can be done, even if it's always years later than promised.  He and Tesla have certainly given the whole industry a real wake up call that it deserved and needed.  I just don't have to like or agree with how he does things, but damn it he does them.  But damn it, good on him/them.  There still seems to be a semi revolving door of people going to Tesla from other places in the industry.  More are staying than used too, but I've met so many people who interviewed/went to work there.  Some didn't accept positions or quit within a few months to a year.  They all say they still believe it's a house of cards that's going to implode.  But again, I've been hearing that for over a decade now, and the company still keeps going.  It will be fascinating to read a real history of Tesla in another 2o years.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

Thank you!

My only experience is the Model S. Which I mostly like. But, finding someone with 1st hand Rivian and Lucid experience. My lady has been considering an electric car. 

Do you have any experience with the Lightening or Mach-E? I know you were with Ford at one point. But unsure if you're allowed to speak on.

I'm just going to say that the Model S was a generation behind the 3 - you can see it clearly by comparing the drive units. But of course the 3 is aimed at a different market and price point than the S, so it has to deal with that. The new S is the one to compare to things like Lucid or Rivian. Having never been close to any of those, I have nothing to offer.

The 3 has physical controls for wipers, PRNDL, park brake, turn indicators, high beams, cruise speed/engage/cancel/follow distance, audio volume/pause/prev/next, four-way flashers and voice control. About the only commonly used control that is only onscreen is the seat heaters, and those can be controlled by voice if desired. I believe that Germany has already objected to the wiper control although I'm not sure of all the details. I did have a discussion with a GRM member quite a number of years ago (before I had extensive experience with a touch-screen interface) about buttons and he pointed out that people invariably always look to locate a button even if they think they don't. He was quoting some human interface studies from Honda, if memory serves. I compared the number of permanent buttons in my M5 with the number of permanent controls/permanent icons on the 3 a while back and they're a lot closer than you think. 

The X was a mistake, I'm surprised it's still in production. Those doors, goofy idea.

Anyhow, with regards to the winter range - the newer Teslas with heat pumps definitely do better than the older resistive heaters like mine. It's about the only update I kinda wish ours had, but that's just because I like having the better tech :) Haven't come across a situation where it's been limiting because the thing has so much excess range for day to day use.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Oh no!  Please help me. My wife is in love with those doors.  Other than being goofy is there anything good you can tell me about the model X?  

I'll send you an email tonight so we can protect everyone from more Tesla talk :)

In reply to Mustang50 :

Just saw how a town in Alaska is using EV buses. Regular 40' long school buses designed to carry 70+ students using EV hasn't  missed a day since purchase in 2019.  
   Perfect application. start and stop, so using regenerative braking a lot.relatively short trips. Seldom use over 100 miles a day. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to Mustang50 :

Just saw how a town in Alaska is using EV buses. Regular 40' long school buses designed to carry 70+ students using EV hasn't  missed a day since purchase in 2019.  
   Perfect application. start and stop, so using regenerative braking a lot.relatively short trips. Seldom use over 100 miles a day. 

It's worth noting that the bus in use here has a pretty huge 226kwh battery pack to achieve the task of barely traveling 100 miles in a pretty ideal low speed, stop and go urban drive cycle. The bus alone costs $400k (more than double what most ICE school buses cost) and at least some of the charging is done with solar which adds to the cost of the bus (assuming the bus barn didn't have need for lots of solar power before).

So EVs can work and work well in many use cases. But they nearly always require compromise of some sort, be it massive batteries, cost, weight, charge time, etc.

I also wonder if a bus in this duty cycle has any more insulation for the passenger compartment than most. Since heating the cabin uses so much juice, it might be beneficial. Even if the price goes from $400k to 403k or something with added insulation.

In reply to STM317 :

Cost is really a function of volume.  I should imagine the first few had extremely massive development costs divided by a very few.  But Give Thomas Bus company their due.  They went ahead when they knew without a doubt that only a tiny handful of EV's would be sold. 
  It's interesting that Fords Basic F150 EV sells for $40,000 not massively more than a ICE F150 with the same crew cab and 4x4 does. Plus it has a 400+ horsepower 700+ ft pound toque.   Far more than the basic ICE  would. 
      

frenchyd said:

In reply to STM317 :

Cost is really a function of volume.  I should imagine the first few had extremely massive development costs divided by a very few.  But Give Thomas Bus company their due.  They went ahead when they knew without a doubt that only a tiny handful of EV's would be sold. 

You're right about scale. As for low sales, that's a chicken and egg situation. Prices are high because sales are low, and sales are low because prices are high. Like other sectors of the transportation market, adoption of EVs in the commercial sector is heavily dependent on government subsidy and policy change. $350k of the 400k price of the EV bus purchased in this case was funded by grants. The solar they use to charge it probably was as well.

*Not saying that subsidies are necessarily good or bad, just noting how critical they often are to break the chicken/egg cycle

Thomas and many other bus makers have an EV option. With ICEs being banned in some locations in the coming years, it's just smart business to at least have the option available.

frenchyd said:

In reply to Mustang50 :

Just saw how a town in Alaska is using EV buses. Regular 40' long school buses designed to carry 70+ students using EV hasn't  missed a day since purchase in 2019.  
   Perfect application. start and stop, so using regenerative braking a lot.relatively short trips. Seldom use over 100 miles a day. 

It also hits another helpful criteria: it goes back to the same place at the end of every day. Which means the available charging infrasturcture is a 100% known quantity, rather than having to find a suitable charger. 

That's true of pretty much all EVs in normal operation. The road trip is the exception, not the rule. 

Commercial vehicles with predictable use patterns (very predictable, in the case of a passenger bus) make it easy to figure out cost calculations which should make electrification simpler to evaluate. What does a normal bus cost for AK use and delivery?