Enablers, please explain to me why I'd want an RX8 R3 instead of a 996

I wouldn't pay that much for an '09 RX-8 R3. I'd pay nearly half that for an '05 and have a huge budget for mods left over. I don't think I'd go after that particular 996.

There is a clean 09 rx8 locally for $12k with 40k mi. Also there is a local doctor that is selling his 996 with 60k for $18k. Both are stock, but in my opinion, I think still comparable since aftermarket parts don't add value and AT BEST don't detract value.

codrus wrote: Because you don't like torque? Because you prefer apex seal failures to IMS bearing failures? I don't think I'd buy either.

+1, why spend that much money on a car that you know the engine is going to blow up?

Because you don't like torque and like awkward styling and no headroom, particularly with a helmet on?

Rx8 is very well balanced, but feels like it has no power.

996 for me all the way

Travis_K wrote:

codrus wrote: Because you don't like torque? Because you prefer apex seal failures to IMS bearing failures? I don't think I'd buy either.

+1, why spend that much money on a car that you know the engine is going to blow up?

Friend has a 996, engine blew up. Getting rebuilt right now for something around $10,000.

Rx7 engine blows up you would probably pay 1/3 of that.

So if it's a choice of ONLY these car it would be RX8. If it were me making this choice in real life? I would pick neither. Both are bankruptcy mobiles and there are far better choices out there. Like a S2000 for example to start with.

kanaric wrote:

Travis_K wrote:

codrus wrote: Because you don't like torque? Because you prefer apex seal failures to IMS bearing failures? I don't think I'd buy either.

+1, why spend that much money on a car that you know the engine is going to blow up?

Friend has a 996, engine blew up. Getting rebuilt right now for something around $10,000. Rx7 engine blows up you would probably pay 1/3 of that. So if it's a choice of ONLY these car it would be RX8. If it were me making this choice in real life? I would pick neither. Both are bankruptcy mobiles and there are far better choices out there. Like a S2000 for example to start with.

This is my opinion as well. I didn't want to play the S2000 card, but you saved me the trouble!

I can only have one car, and the RX-8 would have been perfect... Except that I KNOW the engine will blow up (and the gas mileage is lousy).

That usually throws that car out the window, but you're comparing it to another car that you more or less know will blow up its engine. So... Buy a stook or a Vette or a Cayman?

You know, i think this is one of the only comparo threads that i consider to have a fundamentally flawed concept.

You'd have to be a crazy Rx8 nut to take an rx8 over a DD'able 911.

But i also agree with clutchsmoke that i'd buy a cheaper rx8 and a different 911.

mtn wrote: I can only have one car, and the RX-8 would have been perfect... Except that I KNOW the engine will blow up (and the gas mileage is lousy). That usually throws that car out the window, but you're comparing it to another car that you more or less know will blow up its engine. So... Buy a stook or a Vette or a Cayman?

Funny thing is I have another friend with a Cayman. Engine blew up too, lol. My only two friends with flat engine Porsches.

Are there any Porsches that aren't known for the engines blowing up? The only one I can think of is maybe the 928.

Get both? Then drive them both for a year and sell the one you don't like.

In reply to dean1484:

That would be the ideal situation, but unfortunately the spare change I found under the sofa won't buy me both.

I also tried a stock 996 and I'm not that keen on them. I don't know why, but the 996 to me is one of those cars that needs some hotrodding before it works for me.

I do like S2ks, but good ones are harder to find than good 996s thanks to the F&F crowd, plus it's another car that I have to remove the stock seats from and hope that dropping in the Recaros will make me fit OK with a helmet.

Regarding the "they're all too expensive, if you travel half across the country you can save a few grand" comments - I do appreciate the input but keep in mind the opportunity cost. Picking something up from, say, Texas, that's a few grand cheaper is going to cost me ~$500 in flights, plus several days' vacation time and all that. If I factor in those costs, these cars suddenly aren't that cheap anymore. I'd do that for a special car, but neither a regular 996 nor an RX8 R3 is special enough for that.

996!!!!

I'm really tired of the 'all M96M97 engines will blow up' B.S. It's just that. B.S. Go and research it, I have extensively.

All those engines have issues with the IMS, I'll come to that later. The early M96 engines, mainly the 2.5L Boxster unit's also had issues with engine 'chucking' in that due to issues in the casting process some had a section of the cylinder wall crack and break out. Engine 100% dead end of story. But that was more of an infant mortality issue and any early 2.5L or very very early 3.4L. Basically it was resolved prior to 99.

Older engines had RMS (Rear main seal) issues, but this was more of an oil drip issue rather than an engine failure and the redesigned parts seem to have cured it.

IMS Bearings. The big one. Yes they can and do fail with potentially critical results. There does seem to be different failure rates based on year and type of bearing as several have been used over the years. But the 'general' consensus seems to be around 5% will eventually fail, and it often seems like low mileage, gently used cars are affected more, but beat on cars suffering less. It's not a hard job to DIY by most accounts, check any Porsche board Pelican, 6 speed, 986forums, Rennlist) and there are people DIYing it. If you don't want to DIY it most people get it replaced at the same time clutch replacement. The going rate for parts and labor to do a clutch, IMS and RMS seems to be $2,400-3,500 depending on where and if it's a Porsche dealer or specialist. Big numbers for GRM's, but not big #'s for the average Porsche owner. There are options for what IMS to use. Porsche have upgraded it several times, Pelican have their own kit and LN Engineering (*) have a ceramic bearing which they claim is proprietary to only them, although other people have sourced ceramic bearings for less than $100 themselves. YEs it's caveat emptor, but it's not a certain failure. If (when) it's me I'll change the clutch and do the bearing at the same time.

(*) LN have pissed people off on some boards by being chief amongst the scaremongers predicting total failure of all engines when they stand to make $$$”s on their $650-800 kit.

P.S. 996 all the way. The Rx8 is a heck of a nice ride, but I could never ever justify the lousy gas mileage no matter how cool it looks or how well it drives.

P.P.S. That's a hell of a good looking 996.

996, then if the IMS bearing grenades do an LS swap

I love my R3 as far as the trackability vs. DD-ability compromise. I've stopped DD-ing it for a couple of reasons. Maintenance, fuel economy, and MI roads with 19" wheels and no sidewall tires.

Maintenance wise, I change the oil every 3K. I use Idemitsu rotary synthetic. I also put in 4oz of Idemitsu fuel mix every tank (6 oz on track days) for a little extra lube. I have to mail order the oils so shipping adds up. The oil itself is on par with other synthetics price wise. Track pads last me 3/4 of a season and rotors about 1.5-2 seasons. I also rebuilt the front calipers. I do tend to melt the rubber dust boots for the piston and the slider pins. It eats spark plugs 15k-25k for me with track time, but they are a 30 min. job taking my time to remove the wheel for easier access. Coils should be replaced every 30k miles. I had 35k on mine and noticed a difference. I had changed the plugs and wires at 30k. The coils smoothed everything out a bit.

Fuel economy. With a 60 mile per day commute, < 18 mpg avg. with Prem. fuel was not cutting it anymore. When I lived with my ex, 4 miles was much better. Best I have EVER gotten in the car was 22mpg and that was for an extended 55-65 mph highway trip in moderate traffic.

And for the wheels and tires, I already have a slight bend in at least one rim due to MI's lack of road maintenance after last winter. I see you are in NV though, so you should have almost no issues there.

Try one on for fit first if you haven't before. The R3 specific Recaros are tight. I'm 185 lbs, 5'9" and they fit tight on me, but in a somewhat comfortable way. I added an air lumbar support because they have no lumbar in them at all.

The only mods I have made are Hotchkis anti-roll bars, a short shifter, Carbotech pads, SS brake lines, modified cat-pipe (factory cat pipe and resonator with stright pipe instead of cat) and modified muffler (modified guts to make it louder).

I added Hotchkis anti-roll bars F&R to tune out some of the understeer, as well as help body roll induced tire wear. I can't get enough front camber to evenly wear the tires. The anti-roll bars helped a lot in that regard. They help the car rotate more on corner entry and balance it out nicely.

The only issue I have on track with it is fuel starvation. The fuel gauge is not accurate at high-g's. It reads 1/2 tank when it has less than 1/4. The Torque app. provides a better fuel level estimation, but I have been caught out a couple times by low fuel even when the fuel gauge says I am OK. It was also too quiet, hence the modified muffler. It is still one of the quietest cars out there. I couldn't hear the engine over wind noise at >80 mph.

As a DD, the R3's ride is very firm, but not overly harsh. The interior is still tight and mostly squeak free after 45k miles. The stereo is the nicest I've had, but I don't really worry about that when purchasing a car. The lack of sunroof helps with helmet and head room for sure. The seats are comfortable for about an hour and a half for me before I start feeling it. Also, the steering wheel reach is a bit too far away for me if my legs are comfortable. (Just a nit pick, I find that problem in a lot of cars without telescoping steering wheels.) If I were planning on keeping the car longer, I would make some more adjustments. I have had to have the outer driver side bolster re-done due to the typical vinyl cracking and hole forming. I also have to fix the "shoulder harness" pass thorough trim since they have started to fall out. I DDed it for about 30k miles without any issues and it is always a car that brings a smile to my face when driving it (until I need a gas station in <250 miles).

I also happen to instruct with the local PCA. While I don't have much road experience in 996s, I do have some track time with a couple. They are a bit softer, but have more punch out of the turns and a bit higher top speed. Laptime wise, I am on par with a well driven stock 996. With a really good driver, they are a bit faster, but don't run away from me. The R3 is definitely a momentum car. You must be really, really smooth with it to make it go fast, so it does help your driving.

Wow, I've written a novel here. I guess I really don't want to work today

EDIT: Looking at that car it has a few upgrades. It already has the Enkei RPF1 wheels (but it lost the special R3 wheels) and looks like a Racing Beat exhaust. It is missing the engine cover and battery cover. Make sure there is a maintenance history if you go with that car. Get a compression test done by a competent, rotary experienced mechanic.

EDIT 2: Looks like they have ATE blue in the brake system. It has either been tracked, or used by someone who tracks cars. Good or bad depending on maintenance.

Thanks Phil & Adrian. I was aware of the 996 engine failure rate vs the Internet failure rate (5%-10% vs at least 200%). Gas mileage is a secondary concern in this case, I mostly commute by motorcycle in the summer and even the Evo gets around ~30mpg on my commute, so having something in the high teens that I occasionally drive wouldn't be that big a deal.

The 996 I linked to isn't as "soft" as a non-modified one (which seems to be the one issue that bugs me about them) but it's still perfectly streetable. Both cars would see some track time.

Mind you, I just had to call in an HVAC guy because our home's HVAC system seems to be going on the fritz so I may have to postpone any purchase of a car that's more than $10k by a year anyway .

@CGLockRacer, I owned one of each generation RX7. I don't buy a rotary that's more than $2k without a Mazda compression test .

Ah crap, looks like the search is back on at least for a 996 - my inexperience with buying more expensive cars that require me to borrow a few bucks while I get the MR2 ready for sale had me hit a snag because the 996 had more than 100k miles on it.

At least the home HVAC is OK, all I need to do now is find a 964 or 996 C2 within my budget with less than 100k on it...

I'm oddly relieved that you didn't get that particular 996. I think there are better/lower mile cars out there for the same money.

I had an RX-8. Not a bad car at all, in fact pretty great. I'd get the Porsche.

BoxheadTim wrote: all I need to do now is find a 964

That's the answer.

A 996 with the IMS fix is a helluva car. That's THE Porsche bargain right now. My neighbor picked up a low-mileage 2001 coupe last fall and it's a beautiful car.

Great-driving car, too. I've put down some miles in my uncle's '04 and it's just a fantastic car. Those who hate on the 996 have likely never driven one.

Oh god don't show SWMBO that RX8.

So much want!