EV Minivan - why isn't there one (or many) now or planned??

RevRico said:

ProDarwin said:

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

I guess that there are plenty of people who take their vacations in 150 mile chunks

I guess I am one of those people.  Or I take a flight.

Yea. After an 8 hour each way trip to Vegas a bunch of years ago, if I'm going anywhere more than about 4 hours by car away, I'm taking a plane and getting more time at my destination with less headache and less fatigue when I arrive. 

I've also only had 2 vacations in the last umm uhh 20 years or so. Yea, last family vacation I was 14, so Vegas in 2012 and the honeymoon this past August. 

To add in, my 6 year old becomes unbearable during the 30 minute drive to her grandmother's, I couldn't imagine torturing myself or anyone else locking them in a car with her for 6+ hours.

I'm exactly the opposite. I typically (precovid) have to travel 1000 miles for work to a lab. I'm driving next time after all of the stress associated with air travel. Our kids do reasonably well in car rides for a long time with no DVD or other entertainment stuff other than books and music.

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

I guess that there are plenty of people who take their vacations in 150 mile chunks, but I imagine that most of us have those "We're driving across the country in 3 days if'n it kills us" stories.  

People of means tend to overspec their vehicles - Full backroads package for that one trip to the mountains every year. Full-size pickup for the bags of compost and C8 Vette for the cruise to the winery.  

The middle ground between "we only drive 150 miles a day" and "I have to be able to drive for 1000 miles nonstop while peeing out the window" is "we've been driving for three hours, let's stop for 25 minutes to stretch our legs, then we'll get back on the road". Which is the EV road trip. Or any realistic actual road trip if you look at it objectively. 

BTW, here's what an EV road trip looks like with a totally-not-a-minivan Model Y and the charging infrastructure of a bit more than a year ago.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/cross-country-ev-roadtrip/175507/page1/

And here's what the change in that infrastructure looks like since then for those who are interested.

Nissan has their eNV200 line of electric minivans, but they're not sold in the US and at least the early models were getting terrible reviews for generally being like overgrown Kei vans.

I'm also the opposite.  8-10 hrs and I'm driving.  Sometimes more. I have detested flying since 2001.  I really want to visit friends in Montana.  The chances of me flying out there from PA are slim to none.  I'll fly for work when necessary (and I don't have to pack much), but even then I'll try to drive if I can.  I'd rather get another root canal than go through the hassle of flying. 

tuna55 said:

RevRico said:

 

I'm exactly the opposite. I typically (precovid) have to travel 1000 miles for work to a lab. I'm driving next time after all of the stress associated with air travel. Our kids do reasonably well in car rides for a long time with no DVD or other entertainment stuff other than books and music.

Wow.  That's crazy.

I have to travel to vendors in TX sometimes (~1100 miles).  Driving would be 17 hours each way.  I can get up early, fly there, have my meetings and come back in one day.  OR  I can fly there, have meetings, take some time to enjoy some of the area, get a good night's sleep in a hotel, get up and get on a return flight and still be back home in less than driving time alone.

Don't get me wrong, flying sucks.  But so do long distance drives, and at least flying gets it over with a hell of a lot quicker.

I wonder what the next tier of EV infrastructure (after "chargers exist pretty often") will look like. Will it be:

1. More stuff going in where the chargers are clustered? (Minimizes locations with big wiring demands)
2. More places adding chargers (I've just realized all the ~300-mile-nominal EVs will want a buffer top up along my longest regular trip, but the only "grab lunch" option is to drive through something and eat in the Walmart parking lot. If a proper restaurant had an Electrify America kiosk, they'd also have my business)
3. The all-important "option I didn't see coming."

I won't need to do a loooong charge, but getting off the freeway, changing venues, and eating and charging in series rather than parallel... Just wondering what we'll settle on. It's a minor inconvenience to be reduced to Taco Bell In The Car on this particular trip, but eating out in new places is one of the joys of travel, and Hood River is nice, but the Walmart parking lot isn't.

Jesse Ransom said:

The all-important "option I didn't see coming."

Video games to play while you charge.

Call it a cArcade.

ProDarwin said:

Don't get me wrong, flying sucks.  But so do long distance drives, and at least flying gets it over with a hell of a lot quicker.

Being able to get *some* work done during the trip may also come in handy. Or at least some reading, or sleep which are frowned upoin while behind the wheel. There's always AMTRAK but who uses that?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

Jesse Ransom said:

The all-important "option I didn't see coming."

Video games to play while you charge.

Call it a cArcade.

Hell, you can probably run a righteously good racing sim with the hardware already present.

You can already play video games in a Tesla while charging, including using an Xbox controller. Or the actual steering wheel as a control. 

Which means someone has interfaced the Xbox controller with the car, and contacts inside Tesla will not deny that this has been used to actually drive a car.

You probably want to get out while it's charging though, since you've presumably been in the car for hours.  Maybe a nice Street Fighter cabinet, or Time Crisis, or DDR.  Something where you stand up.

Keith Tanner said:

You can already play video games in a Tesla while charging, including using an Xbox controller. Or the actual steering wheel as a control. 

The steering still has a mechanical correction to the wheels then ground though, so how does this work?  Are you scrubbing the tires the whole time you play?  Or do you mean just the wheel buttons?

Jesse Ransom said:

I wonder what the next tier of EV infrastructure (after "chargers exist pretty often") will look like. Will it be:

1. More stuff going in where the chargers are clustered? (Minimizes locations with big wiring demands)
2. More places adding chargers (I've just realized all the ~300-mile-nominal EVs will want a buffer top up along my longest regular trip, but the only "grab lunch" option is to drive through something and eat in the Walmart parking lot. If a proper restaurant had an Electrify America kiosk, they'd also have my business)
3. The all-important "option I didn't see coming."

I won't need to do a loooong charge, but getting off the freeway, changing venues, and eating and charging in series rather than parallel... Just wondering what we'll settle on. It's a minor inconvenience to be reduced to Taco Bell In The Car on this particular trip, but eating out in new places is one of the joys of travel, and Hood River is nice, but the Walmart parking lot isn't.

My theory is that chargers will undo some of the damage done to small towns by the interstate system. I have now found a new favorite deli in a pedestrian mall in Idaho Springs due to a charger, and we'll definitely stop there again. So I suspect we will see chargers going in to attract visitors as well as attractions (better-than-fast-food casual restaurants, for example) going in near chargers. You can stick a charging station in places you couldn't put a gas station, they fit in well with a small town center because they're basically just a parking lot that probably already exists.

With the current buildout, charger locations are clearly determined by completing a network and existing arrangements with large corporations. You see Superchargers in odd locations but once you look at the big map, you realize they open up a route (example, Blanding UT, 3300 lonely people). You also find EA chargers in a LOT of Walmart/Sam's Club parking lots which tells me there's a high level agreement in place.

Jesse Ransom said:

I wonder what the next tier of EV infrastructure (after "chargers exist pretty often") will look like. Will it be:

1. More stuff going in where the chargers are clustered? (Minimizes locations with big wiring demands)
2. More places adding chargers (I've just realized all the ~300-mile-nominal EVs will want a buffer top up along my longest regular trip, but the only "grab lunch" option is to drive through something and eat in the Walmart parking lot. If a proper restaurant had an Electrify America kiosk, they'd also have my business)
3. The all-important "option I didn't see coming."

I won't need to do a loooong charge, but getting off the freeway, changing venues, and eating and charging in series rather than parallel... Just wondering what we'll settle on. It's a minor inconvenience to be reduced to Taco Bell In The Car on this particular trip, but eating out in new places is one of the joys of travel, and Hood River is nice, but the Walmart parking lot isn't.

Imagine many of those old towns that were nothing more thant "whistle stops" and then became places to grab fuel and a stretch during the infancy of the automobile craze will get busier again.

Also, with the more mobile/WFH workforce these days, I can see more upwardly mobile folks moving to smaller towns because they don't NEED all of the amenties that a big city provides.  Some do, but many others would prefer a place where they can be closer to nature.  This means that their tax money will help pay for infrastructure improvements.

ProDarwin said:

Keith Tanner said:

You can already play video games in a Tesla while charging, including using an Xbox controller. Or the actual steering wheel as a control. 

The steering still has a mechanical correction to the wheels then ground though, so how does this work?  Are you scrubbing the tires the whole time you play?  Or do you mean just the wheel buttons?

Haven't tried it yet. But apparently the wheel can "freewheel". I can see how you could do this with BMW's "Active steering" from 15 years ago. That system could allow for disconnection of the steering wheel from the front wheels via planetary gears, although the failsafe is a locked connection. I don't know enough of the Tesla's steering tech to know how this might be done now although now I'm going to find out.
 

The point is - "play video games while charging" is not a future option. It's out there on hundreds of thousands of cars.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

OK I'll admit it, I thought of "cArcade" and worked backwards from there.

Our world might be a little better if it was dotted with Wall Drugs and mini-amusement parks.

Can anyone reference some sort of study showing the power requirements of an increasingly electrified country? Such as X number of rural interstate  gas stations pump Y amount of gas which converts to Z amount of KW, so given 10 percent conversion to electric will require ZZ worth of charging stations et cetera.

Keith Tanner said:

This is just a bad take in so many ways.

1000 miles safely with no meaningful stops? That's over 13 hours of driving at a 75 mph average. That would be flat out illegal for a professional driver. You might as well be taking shots of tequila at the same time given what your reaction time is going to be like. There's a reason rural interstates are full of "drowsy drivers get killed" warning signs. This plan isn't even possible with an ICE unless it's got a massive supplementary fuel tank somewhere.

Have you looked at charger distribution in those thousands of miles of rural areas? It's a lot better than you think.

Now, if you're driving a minivan, I'm assuming there are kidlets involved. I don't have any myself, but it's my understanding that unless you're also giving them some of your tequila they get a little unruly after 13 hours of being strapped in a seat.

I've road tripped across the montains in the Southwest in an EV, I'm not just making this up. I have friends who have done cross-country blasts in EVs and have not had any trouble maintaining significant progress despite having to charge. The problem you're seeing (and exhibiting) is the lack of awareness of what charging stops are, how fast they are and how often you really stop on a road trip. As more people are exposed to how EVs actually work, this perception will change.

Next time you do a 1000 mile one day drive, keep a log book and let us know what your actual moving vs stopped time is.

Funny you say that, what made me think about that range number was the 850 mile drive we did to visit my wife's family.  Asheville, NC to Shreveport, LA.  We left at 2:30 AM EST and got in at around 3:30 PM central time, for a total elasped time of ~14 hours, with three 30-40 minute stops along the way for gas and to let my son (age 2) run around.  It wasn't that hard with two people, btw. I guess in an ideal world, we could've stopped at a charging station for the "let the kid run around so he doesn't murder us from his car seat" portion of the trip, but that makes for a pretty restrictive travel schedule.  Usually, our stops were dictated by how cranky our son was getting, it would suck having 70-80 miles to get to the charger with a freaking out kid in the back.  

And sure, I'm certain that as time goes on and there are more and better chargers out there, this will be less of a thing.  And I don't honestly expect 1000 mile range vehicles to be the norm.  But it's what is needed at the moment for it to be as practical as a gasoline or gasoline hybrid vehicle.  

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

Our world might be a little better if it was dotted with Wall Drugs and mini-amusement parks.

Can anyone reference some sort of study showing the power requirements of an increasingly electrified country? Such as X number of rural interstate  gas stations pump Y amount of gas which converts to Z amount of KW, so given 10 percent conversion to electric will require ZZ worth of charging stations et cetera.

Here's one point of data to think about. In the last 5 years, Bitcoin mining went from a little thing some people did with home computers to a major thing using over 100 Terawatts of power annually and growing. Electric generation and grid ability has grwon to match. Same will happen over the next several decades with EVs.

Also, we need more Thorium LFTR plants, stat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74iiaXIVtZI

Keith Tanner said:

ProDarwin said:

Keith Tanner said:

You can already play video games in a Tesla while charging, including using an Xbox controller. Or the actual steering wheel as a control. 

The steering still has a mechanical correction to the wheels then ground though, so how does this work?  Are you scrubbing the tires the whole time you play?  Or do you mean just the wheel buttons?

Haven't tried it yet. But apparently the wheel can "freewheel". I can see how you could do this with BMW's "Active steering" from 15 years ago. That system could allow for disconnection of the steering wheel from the front wheels via planetary gears, although the failsafe is a locked connection. I don't know enough of the Tesla's steering tech to know how this might be done now although now I'm going to find out.
 

The point is - "play video games while charging" is not a future option. It's out there on hundreds of thousands of cars.

I'm probably the only one who cares, but it looks like it does actually steer the front wheels while you're playing. Must have the power assist turned up all the way because people playing it in YouTube videos appear to be moving the wheel easily, but a USB controller would probably be a wise investment once you move past the "try it once" stage.

In reply to rothwem :

What gas powered vehicle goes 1000 miles in a tank? 

Name one. 

Maybe hyper miling an old VW diesel, maybe, if you live where it's glass flat.

I will add something of substance to this post. 

With larger and larger adoption of EVs and thus people charging at home, there WILL be much needed user end electrical grid upgrades. I don't know for certain, just going from my small local sample size, but a lot of old houses around here still have 60 amp fuse boxes as their only service. That's a far bigger bottleneck, I imagine, than what the power plants are pushing out. This will be expensive, to the point it might really slow down large spread adoption, but it will result in higher home values and better home safety than we have now. 

Even my house was rewired in the 80s and only has a 100 amp service entrance to the house, and a separate 100 amp to the back garage. It's fine as a house and with my tools, but u would want a 200 amp service if I was bringing in EVs. Though I'd rather have a 200 amp service period just to have extra capacity and better circuit layouts. 

In reply to RevRico :

That only matters if you're trying to "fast" charge your vehicle.  If you're just slow charging overnight, then the load is relatively low in the grand scheme of things.

I do not really have a preference either way between gas/electric/hybrid, but have been following this thread. There are a few versions of skateboards coming on-line soon like the GM Ultium platform, which should provide a pretty good base for most of the fleet they plan to sell.

On the recharging front, here is a link to an interactive map of the available charging stations (as well as other forms of alternative fuel) as documented by the US government.

It has options for routing which I suppose would help decide your charging (refueling) options for long trips.

Alternative fuel stations in US and Canada

RevRico said:

In reply to rothwem :

What gas powered vehicle goes 1000 miles in a tank? 

Name one. 

Maybe hyper miling an old VW diesel, maybe, if you live where it's glass flat.

C&D did a drive across the country in a new Jetta 1.6td (so, mid 80s) and reported that they drove eight hours straight without leaving fifth gear while crossing one of the flatter parts of the country.  Assuming that they actually kept to 55mph, because one of the goals of the exercise was to maximize fuel economy, that works out to 440 miles.  If they drove like humans and kept to 65ish, that is about 520 miles.