MrFancypants said:In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
I'm not blaming EVs for being priced at where they are, I'm just stating a fact... a $40k car is a big ask for most people.
Except the data says that it's a bit below an average ask for the average American, because that's literally what happens right now today.
MrFancypants said:Encountering that attitude in random places creates a fair amount of resentment because it's insensitive to the fact that a $40k entry fee is a huge ask for a majority of people.
The vehicle in question, a Honda Odyssey, starts at $32k and rapidly goes north of $50k once you add options. Yes you can buy a used 15 year old one for $6k, and I bet a 15 year old Tesla will be comparable. But to act like $40k is some ridiculous unattainable vehicle while driving a vehicle that costs $40k new is really silly.
I get it, I drive a used Dodge Grand Caravan for chrissakes, but I'm not going to get all weepy because someone's talking about wanting automakers to make nicer minivans.
Keith Tanner said:Most EV enthusiasts drive Teslas because most EVs are Teslas :) It's just a matter of numbers.
RevRico, I did the calculation on the Tesla site because I'm familiar with it so it was quick and easy: https://www.tesla.com/trips. I've heard good things about https://abetterrouteplanner.com which is a more vehicle-agnostic calculator.
It will be interesting to see how long it takes before people start looking at TCO instead of initial purchase price. Money saved on fuel can directly offset a car payment, so a $40k EV will not cost as much each month as a $40k gas vehicle. The actual offset depends on the amount driven and the cost of both power (relatively stable on the short term) and gasoline (very much not stable on the short term). Maintenance is a little harder to get a handle on because a lot of people don't pay attention to it, but even a $50 oil change every 5000 miles adds up.
Note that $40,000 is actually lower than the average new vehicle price in the US, so a $40k vehicle is not as unattainble to the mass market as you might think.
Regarding operating costs, I'm at about 1/7th or 1/8th my previous 29 mpg ICE car in terms of operating costs alone. Obviously no timing belts, oil changes, brakes, air filters, oxygen sensors, throttle position sensors, transmission fluid changes, catalytic converters, etc...
Impressive. Comparable vehicles, or are you comparing a 2018 EV to a 1998 ICE? Are your operating costs TCO? Do you include purchase price, depreciation, etc? I would be curious to see those numbers.
ProDarwin said:Impressive. Comparable vehicles, or are you comparing a 2018 EV to a 1998 ICE? Are your operating costs TCO? Do you include purchase price, depreciation, etc? I would be curious to see those numbers.
Not at all comparable, it was my 1988 Accord and the 2019 Bolt. I have the data I have. This did not include parts for the Honda (which were needed frequently!) nor the hours needed to keep the stupid thing running.
I have some data on depreciation and purchase price, but it's not relevant for this because I have not yet sold the Bolt and it was a near-new car versus the old and blown up Bolt (running on two cylinders when I bought it)
So I am just comparing average fuel cost and 29 mpg versus the same commute with my Bolt and charging at night (and excluding the rebate I am getting from my electric company and also excluding the road tax I have to pay for having an EV, though they about even out over a three year period)
tuna55 said:MrFancypants said:In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
I'm not blaming EVs for being priced at where they are, I'm just stating a fact... a $40k car is a big ask for most people.
Except the data says that it's a bit below an average ask for the average American, because that's literally what happens right now today.
Are you saying that people who earn an average wage are purchasing new vehicles at the average "new car" price or does it not make more sense that most Americans are buying used cars and the ones earning significantly more are who drive the average cost of a new car?
Because if you're spending $45k on a new car on a $31k income, you're going to have a bad time.
ProDarwin said:Impressive. Comparable vehicles, or are you comparing a 2018 EV to a 1998 ICE? Are your operating costs TCO? Do you include purchase price, depreciation, etc? I would be curious to see those numbers.
Insurance and registration costs would be interesting variables as well
MrFancypants said:tuna55 said:MrFancypants said:In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
I'm not blaming EVs for being priced at where they are, I'm just stating a fact... a $40k car is a big ask for most people.
Except the data says that it's a bit below an average ask for the average American, because that's literally what happens right now today.
Are you saying that people who earn an average wage are purchasing new vehicles at the average "new car" price or does it not make more sense that most Americans are buying used cars and the ones earning significantly more are who drive the average cost of a new car?
Because if you're spending $45k on a new car on a $31k income, you're going to have a bad time.
First off, people do it all the time. Also bear in mind that's the average individual income, not household income.
Second, I am definitely saying that a multitude of new EVs are available near or even below the average new car price in 2021. That literally means that they are at price parity with ICE cars today. All stop. It's not really debatable.
STM317 said:ProDarwin said:Impressive. Comparable vehicles, or are you comparing a 2018 EV to a 1998 ICE? Are your operating costs TCO? Do you include purchase price, depreciation, etc? I would be curious to see those numbers.
Insurance and registration costs would be interesting variables as well
I'd have to get a lot closer than 1988 vs 2019 to get insurance, and if you care, you can go to a number of insurance websites right now and compare comparable vehicles.
registration is identical, though as I stated I have a tax added in since I don't pay fuel tax on gas.
In reply to tuna55 :
It was more rhetorical. In many states, EVs can cost hundreds of dollars more per year to register, and that added fee alone can offset a whole lot of O2 sensors or serpentine belts. But those somewhat hidden costs aren't always considered when people tout how economical EVs are. I'm not doubting your numbers or anything. I appreciate you posting them to add to the conversation. I just wanted to add a few things that prospective EV buyers should consider when doing this sort of calculation. A large part of it seems to come down to how much government subsidizes EVs or not. There are places where EVs are financial home runs, and other locations with little or no subsidy where costs get a lot tighter compared to a comparable ICE.
FWIW, 2019 vehicle TCO for me:
I paid $22k out the door for my Veloster.
I sold it for $18,700 I believe (Carvana) in May this year.
I drove it 27408 miles and spent exactly $2576.69 on fuel.
I spent $283.73 on oil changes, air filter, cabin air filter in that time.
Ignoring insurance and maintenance which I assume are comparable, that's 0.2248/mile
I wonder what a 2019 bolt looks like
Approximating: .29kwh/mile and $0.1124/kwh and 0.90 charging efficiency, thats $992 in fuel. That comes to $1867 difference over a ~2.5 year ownership. Well within the noise when you account for depreciation/purchase price
ProDarwin said:FWIW, 2019 vehicle TCO for me:
I paid $22k out the door for my veloster.
I sold it for $18,700 I believe (Carvana) in May this year.
I drove it 27408 miles and spent exactly $2576.69 on fuel.
I spent $283.73 on oil changes, air filter, cabin air filter in that time.
Ignoring insurance and maintenance which I assume are comparable, that's 0.2248/mile
I wonder what a 2019 bolt looks like
Bought for around $26K on Carvana, drove roughly 46K miles in 24 months of ownership. I don't have an exact fuel cost, but it's likely near $960 (near constant $40 per month added to my electric bill). There has been zero maintenance other than tires, so I do believe that you should include maintenance costs. That's $0.0208 per mile so far. I don't have a sale yet to register.
tuna55 said:There has been zero maintenance other than tires, so I do believe that you should include maintenance costs. That's $0.0208 per mile so far. I don't have a sale yet to register.
I did include my maintenance costs.
tuna55 said:Except the data says that it's a bit below an average ask for the average American, because that's literally what happens right now today.
It's a bit below an average ask for an average new-car-buying American.
There are three times as many used car sales per year as there are new (at least that's what Google says), and many people never buy a new car.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:tuna55 said:Except the data says that it's a bit below an average ask for the average American, because that's literally what happens right now today.
It's a bit below an average ask for an average new-car-buying American.
There are three times as many used car sales per year as there are new (at least that's what Google says), and many people never buy a new car.
[headslap emoticon]
Many manufacturers are selling a NEW EV at below the average price of a NEW ICE car. Chevrolet cannot sell you a ten year old Bolt. Tesla cannot sell you a ten year old Model 3. I am not sure why we have to explain that a new car is priced against other new cars.
Well, without new car buyers we run out of used cars eventually :) The point is that we were talking about new cars, so comparing to new car prices is reasonable.
New car prices are one of those things where we all take a set in our brains. New cars cost $x at a point in our lives, and from that point forward new cars that cost more than $x are too expensive. You see this in Miatas easily, the ND costs the same today as an NA did back in 1990 but people still think "more than $25k for a Miata is too much!". The only way around it is to check the actual stats of the moment.
Also keep in mind: There are often tax credits or rebates available at the Federal and Local level to help offset costs for new purchases (if you're able to do so). Otherwise you'll have to wait for them to hit the secondary market, and considering the number of people who choose to lease instead of buy their vehicles, expect this to get better/easier later.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:tuna55 said:Except the data says that it's a bit below an average ask for the average American, because that's literally what happens right now today.
It's a bit below an average ask for an average new-car-buying American.
There are three times as many used car sales per year as there are new (at least that's what Google says), and many people never buy a new car.
I'm confused. So are you saying there are no used EVs for sale, or ever will be for the used car buyers to choose from? If you can't afford a new one, you probably can afford a used one, like a 5 year old Bolt (which at this point will come with a new 66kWh battery and a new 8 year/100k mile warranty on said battery, so bonus!).
But again, we ARE talking what's available from the manufacturers new, and in new car terms, EVs are reaching price parity, if not actually already having done so. But they come with a lot more day to day convenience for most people, lower TCO vs other new cars, better performance and better emissions (and even when powered by the dirtiest coal in the US, become cleaner than even your current used car in only a couple years of use).
MrFancypants said:In reply to Chris_V :
Why be so dismissive of other people's concerns and requirements? It's not like people are looking for reasons not to try, it's that the cost of trying is literally tens of thousands of dollars. We're not talking about switching to a different brand of coffee.
Why am I dismissive? Because the same BS reasoning and outright misinformation is constantly being trotted out by people who should, at this point, know better. People who refuse to listen to those of us that live with them on a daily basis.
Listen, I have a MINI Cooper JCW Roadster because there are no cheap EV convertibles on the market. I have a Suburban 2500 8.1 liter because there are no good EV tow rigs on the market yet. But just because those two cars can't be replaced yet with an EV version doesn't mean I get to make wildly inaccurate claims about how EVs won't work or are inconvenient or to "leave me be with my outdated ICE cars." I've found, from direct experience over the last decade, that switching to an EV for daily use and road trips is completely doable, inexpensive and MORE convenient than a gasser in that role. And that most of the complaints of the anti-EV brigade, or even the general public, are fallacious, and HAVE BEEN RESPONDED TO numerous times so far. So yes, I'm dismissive because after a decade of being the nice guy and trying to be a educated educator, those groups are dismissive of ME or anyone who tries to educate them/give them facts. No reason to be Mr. Nice Guy any more.
Chris_V said:codrus (Forum Supporter) said:tuna55 said:Except the data says that it's a bit below an average ask for the average American, because that's literally what happens right now today.
It's a bit below an average ask for an average new-car-buying American.
I'm confused. So are you saying there are no used EVs for sale, or ever will be for the used car buyers to choose from? If you can't afford a new one, you probably can afford a used one, like a 5 year old Bolt (which at this point will come with a new 66kWh battery and a new 8 year/100k mile warranty on said battery, so bonus!).
All I'm saying is that equating "average American" with "average new-car buying American" (which was implicit in the statement that I quoted) is incorrect, and that one cannot make a judgement about affordability to the first group of people by looking at statistics on what the second group of people are purchasing. I'm not trying to make any further statement beyond that.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:Chris_V said:codrus (Forum Supporter) said:tuna55 said:Except the data says that it's a bit below an average ask for the average American, because that's literally what happens right now today.
It's a bit below an average ask for an average new-car-buying American.
I'm confused. So are you saying there are no used EVs for sale, or ever will be for the used car buyers to choose from? If you can't afford a new one, you probably can afford a used one, like a 5 year old Bolt (which at this point will come with a new 66kWh battery and a new 8 year/100k mile warranty on said battery, so bonus!).
All I'm saying is that equating "average American" with "average new-car buying American" (which was implicit in the statement that I quoted) is incorrect, and that one cannot make a judgement about affordability to the first group of people by looking at statistics on what the second group of people are purchasing. I'm not trying to make any further statement beyond that.
That's a bit like when I tell my son "Hey quit playing in the street in the dark!" and he says "It's not dark, it's twilight. All I'm saying is that..." and then he gets hit by a car.
tuna55 said:That's a bit like when I tell my son "Hey quit playing in the street in the dark!" and he says "It's not dark, it's twilight. All I'm saying is that..." and then he gets hit by a car.
With 30 seconds of Googling, the average new car purchase is $46K, the average used car is $22K. The difference between those numbers is not inconsequential.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:tuna55 said:That's a bit like when I tell my son "Hey quit playing in the street in the dark!" and he says "It's not dark, it's twilight. All I'm saying is that..." and then he gets hit by a car.
With 30 seconds of Googling, the average new car purchase is $46K, the average used car is $22K. The difference between those numbers is not inconsequential.
Yeah. Also according to what I saw in 2020 there were 39.3 million used cars sold and 14 million new and 2019 37.3 million used and 17.5 million new. So I don't think the average American is spending $46k on a car.
STM317 said:In reply to tuna55 :
It was more rhetorical. In many states, EVs can cost hundreds of dollars more per year to register, and that added fee alone can offset a whole lot of O2 sensors or serpentine belts. But those somewhat hidden costs aren't always considered when people tout how economical EVs are. I'm not doubting your numbers or anything. I appreciate you posting them to add to the conversation. I just wanted to add a few things that prospective EV buyers should consider when doing this sort of calculation. A large part of it seems to come down to how much government subsidizes EVs or not. There are places where EVs are financial home runs, and other locations with little or no subsidy where costs get a lot tighter compared to a comparable ICE.
The hundreds of dollars is to offset the hundreds of dollars in state fuel taxes that they aren't getting, that you would be paying if you had an ICE. Net difference is zero, give or take.
I did some math, and I could buy a new EV "for free" if it was under about $30k... Huge money saver. I'd be okay paying a $200/yr EV fee. Hell, I'm paying $50/yr extra to have a personalized plate, and it doesn't do anything for me except make me giggle...
Pete. (l33t FS) said:STM317 said:In reply to tuna55 :
It was more rhetorical. In many states, EVs can cost hundreds of dollars more per year to register, and that added fee alone can offset a whole lot of O2 sensors or serpentine belts. But those somewhat hidden costs aren't always considered when people tout how economical EVs are. I'm not doubting your numbers or anything. I appreciate you posting them to add to the conversation. I just wanted to add a few things that prospective EV buyers should consider when doing this sort of calculation. A large part of it seems to come down to how much government subsidizes EVs or not. There are places where EVs are financial home runs, and other locations with little or no subsidy where costs get a lot tighter compared to a comparable ICE.
The hundreds of dollars is to offset the hundreds of dollars in state fuel taxes that they aren't getting, that you would be paying if you had an ICE. Net difference is zero, give or take.
I did some math, and I could buy a new EV "for free" if it was under about $30k... Huge money saver. I'd be okay paying a $200/yr EV fee. Hell, I'm paying $50/yr extra to have a personalized plate, and it doesn't do anything for me except make me giggle...
Just for clarity, as we seem to lack it, I paid an extra fee for that tax as I said. I have zero other subsidies other than the rebate from the power company (they pay to gather data on the usage)
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