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alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
3/11/20 12:55 p.m.
Dusterbd13-michael said:

So, just cause i only mess with older stuff:

How will this effect it? Will this get rifld of megasquirt and holly carbs? What about single plane intakes? Bolt on efi? Chinesium speed parts for more universal applications? 

Seems like the linked discussion and this one are talking primarily about 15 year old and newer cars. Only one of mine meets that, and its my daily. After 15 years, lots and lots of the examples are gone from lots and lots of the country. Remaining cars should be exempted or done tailpipe style. After all, i cannot get a factory cat converter for my 95 Silverado. Does the aftermarket now have to certify the replacement for my exact spec truck?

It depends.  

Honestly, for the MS, and focusing on street legal pre OBDII cars, it would be pretty easy to show that it's a major improvement.  And then publish calibration guidelines for the customers as part of their paperwork.  

The holley systems are replacing carb or carb like crappy set ups.  Again, easy to prove that they are legal- and holley has deep pockets.  You'll notice that on every car you see them sponsor on a TV show, it's 100% about the self tune system.  I don't see this as an accident- this is totally directed by Holley.

NickD
NickD PowerDork
3/11/20 12:59 p.m.
alfadriver said:
Dusterbd13-michael said:

So, just cause i only mess with older stuff:

How will this effect it? Will this get rifld of megasquirt and holly carbs? What about single plane intakes? Bolt on efi? Chinesium speed parts for more universal applications? 

Seems like the linked discussion and this one are talking primarily about 15 year old and newer cars. Only one of mine meets that, and its my daily. After 15 years, lots and lots of the examples are gone from lots and lots of the country. Remaining cars should be exempted or done tailpipe style. After all, i cannot get a factory cat converter for my 95 Silverado. Does the aftermarket now have to certify the replacement for my exact spec truck?

It depends.  

Honestly, for the MS, and focusing on street legal pre OBDII cars, it would be pretty easy to show that it's a major improvement.  And then publish calibration guidelines for the customers as part of their paperwork.  

The holley systems are replacing carb or carb like crappy set ups.  Again, easy to prove that they are legal- and holley has deep pockets.  You'll notice that on every car you see them sponsor on a TV show, it's 100% about the self tune system.  I don't see this as an accident- this is totally directed by Holley.

This brings up a thought: Frequently when modifying cars has faced challenges, it has come out stronger for it? So what advancements could we see from this? On the topic of the Holley EFI, could we see more self-tuning EFI systems that are even more accurate? 

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
3/11/20 12:59 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

Holley owns super chips. Diablosport and edge of smoke tune fame.  I suspect their lawyers are already working overtime. 
 

 

06HHR
06HHR Dork
3/11/20 1:01 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 :

Actually, there are EPA cops, however their mission isn't enforcement of the clean air act. They are in the Agency's inspector general office and their main job is to investigate fraud waste and abuse in EPA contracts.  IIRC back in the 90s (and i'm sure this continues today) big environmental mitigation company CEO's liked to use their spouses as shell companies so they could bid for minority set-aside contracts. Women of any race were  considered minority contractors back then.  There were also rouge environmental scientists who liked to siphon funds away from clean-up projects to fund beach homes and whatnot.  Good times laugh

Curtis73
Curtis73 MegaDork
3/11/20 1:02 p.m.
alfadriver said:
Curtis73 said:

I think we can all agree (unless you're a brodozer) that brodozers and their coal-rollers suck.

But randomly hating all diesels because of a small handful of bum-lickers roll coal is not a logical conclusion.  As of 2008 (translated: most of the passenger diesels on the road today) have to comply with the same EPA emissions limits as gas cars.  Diesel also has a higher energy density, it is lighter weight so it requires less energy to distribute, and typically provides far better MPGs.   It also contains fewer volatile compounds so there is less pre-combustion stuff (evaporation).  You can't just say "I hate diesel because it smells bad," without ignoring the significant benefits it provides.  What comes out the tailpipe is only a tiny fraction of its footprint.

Just because you think it smells funny doesn't mean it's bad.  This is like the argument that "it's natural so it must be good for me."  I don't see those people eating night shade or drinking hemlock.

I think people are really upset that the diesel aftermarket community is basically runing the scene for all of us.  Not that diesel in general sucks (although it does... ;)).  

BTW, diesel may get better gas mileage, but since it contains a lot more carbon in it, that net benefit is offset by the higher carbon content.  Sort of like an extreme example of coal v natural gas.

Disagree.  The hydrocarbon chains in diesel contain more carbon atoms per molecule, but there is no more carbon in a gallon of diesel than there is in gasoline... in fact, potentially less since diesel is less dense than gasoline.  Plus, since the tailpipe emissions requirements are the same as gasoline cars, it is hard to say that they "produce" more carbon, especially because they use less carbon for the same work (mpg).

The energy isn't in the carbon, it's in the chemical bonds between the carbon and the hydrogen

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
3/11/20 1:02 p.m.
STM317 said:

This is a complex topic, so I apologize for the lengthy response. "Emissions" is a vague term that covers anything created during combustion. Could be invisible gaseous stuff like NOx, CO2, or Hydrocarbons and it could be particulates that you can see. The NOx and particulates are the ones that are particularly bad for human health, while CO2 is the primary focus these days from an environmental perspective.

NOx causes smog and makes breathing difficult. It's formed by high temps in the combustion chamber. Therefore, lean combustion increases NOx. This is why diesels in particular have high NOx emissions compared to gasoline cars. There are generally three ways to cool combustion: reducing compression ratio, altering fuel timing/quantity, and adding EGR. You might notice that there's a trade off here, where you can improve fuel economy and reduce hydrocarbon emissions, but that creates more harmful NOx. You can increase compression and improve power, but that increases NOx emissions. You can use less EGR and get more of both, but that creates more NOx.

Hydrocarbons (HC) are basically fuel. Burning more fuel cools combustion, which reduces NOx but hurts fuel economy and increases particulates and HC emissions. The earliest diesel emissions standards focused on reducing NOx and resulted in loss of fuel economy, and  implementation of particulate filters in the exhaust as companies just added more fuel to the combustion process or in some cases power was reduced via decreasing compression too. Basically, they tried to meet emissions standards by cleaning up the combustion process, and it worked until standards tightened.

Particulates come from burning more fuel. This results in cooler combustion temps, and lower NOx, but increased HCs. They're nasty because they burrow deep into lungs and like to cause cancer.

Over time, emissions standards tightened and manufacturers added additional tech to remain compliant. Now, modern diesel uses an aftertreatment system composed of different parts. There's a catalyst that converts hydrocarbons, a particulate filter that catches soot, and an SCR that neutralizes NOx by spraying DEF into the exhaust. There's also EGR and variable turbos that work on the engine to impact emissions. Together, these systems are good enough that a manufacturer can run a dirtier combustion process, and rely on the aftertreatments to clean them up enough to meet today's standards. In fact, the combustion process and aggressive fuel timing has allowed dirty enough combustion that we now have 1000ft-lbs trucks sold to the general public with full warranties.

So, it's entirely possible that a 2019 3/4 ton truck with deleted or modified emissions devices is emitting more than a 2001 3/4 ton truck that had no emissions rules at all. But without knowing exactly what was modified or deleted completely, and how the ECU was tuned after the fact, it's hard to say exactly how the claimed "emissions" increases break down. Generally, diesels struggle with NOx and Particulates, so I'd guess that the article stipulating "emissions" is referring to NOx emissions, but it could also be HCs or CO2. It's also possible (perhaps even likely) that all of them are higher than current standards at the same time.

 

Some clarification- 

Diesel doesn't have high NOx because it runs lean vs. gas- it has high NOx because is it SO very hard to convert it in an oxygen rich environment.  On an engine out basis, diesel is cleaner than gas.  But for gas cars, converting NOx into N2 is pretty easy to do.  

There's almost no HC in diesel.  

PM does come from more fuel to burn, but in today's direct injection gas cars, even running stoich you can get PM- thanks to how the fuel is injected.  For diesel, the mechanism is actually the same, as the actual PM limit that we all have to meet is not visible.  If you can see it, it's REALLY bad.

As a check for gas cars- just removing the catalyst will result in about 100x more emissions for most cars these days.  So 32 is probably lowballing the number.  Especially for PM.  The current PM standard is 10mg/mi, which is really low.  Once you see the smoke, I'm pretty sure its 10-100x that amount, even if you drive for 100 miles.

Lastly, CO2 came off the regulated emissions recently....  I'm betting it won't be long before it goes back on.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
3/11/20 1:08 p.m.
Curtis73 said:

Disagree.  The hydrocarbon chains in diesel contain more carbon atoms per molecule, but there is no more carbon in a gallon of diesel than there is in gasoline... in fact, potentially less since diesel is less dense than gasoline.

It's the ratio that's the problem,

Gas is generally C8H18 (4:9), diesel is C10H20 (1:2)- C15-H28.  So for the energy output, there will be more CO2 vs. water for diesel than gas.  So on an energy basis, the gained mileages is offset by the increased carbon.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
3/11/20 1:15 p.m.
NickD said:

Mixed feelings: On one hand, these diesel jackasses are annoying and have been running around thinking they are invincible, and they deserve to get slapped. On the other hand, like Keith said, this doesn't just put eyes on the diesel people, it turns eyes on all car guys.

That is why this kind of irresponsible behavior needs to be shunned and not celebrated.  The hot rodders went through this a few decades ago, and their image is a whole hell of a lot better now than it was in the 50s.  I also remember the whole "Tread Lightly!" campaign for offroaders to try to keep a good image and not wreck public lands.

People doing grossly obnoxious E36 M3 will get everybody else lumped in with them.  People who aren't grossly obnoxious, don't get any negative attention.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
3/11/20 1:24 p.m.
Robbie said:

I'm not worried about the challenge at all. The rules already say that registering your car for the street is optional. How you get your car to the challenge is also optional. Similar events where both kids of cars are present would probably handle similarly.

If you do register your car, that's between you and the state. If you don't, don't drive it on the street.

Too simple?

Or, don't modify the drivetrain in emissions-noncompliant ways.  You can be fast and have fun with an unmodified drivetrain.  This is 2020, horsepower is flowing like water from the automakers.

Tom_Spangler
Tom_Spangler PowerDork
3/11/20 1:25 p.m.
Knurled. said:

That is why this kind of irresponsible behavior needs to be shunned and not celebrated.  The hot rodders went through this a few decades ago, and their image is a whole hell of a lot better now than it was in the 50s.  I also remember the whole "Tread Lightly!" campaign for offroaders to try to keep a good image and not wreck public lands.

People doing grossly obnoxious E36 M3 will get everybody else lumped in with them.  People who aren't grossly obnoxious, don't get any negative attention.

This is my point, stated much eloquently than I did.

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
3/11/20 1:26 p.m.
Knurled. said:
NickD said:

Mixed feelings: On one hand, these diesel jackasses are annoying and have been running around thinking they are invincible, and they deserve to get slapped. On the other hand, like Keith said, this doesn't just put eyes on the diesel people, it turns eyes on all car guys.

That is why this kind of irresponsible behavior needs to be shunned and not celebrated.  The hot rodders went through this a few decades ago, and their image is a whole hell of a lot better now than it was in the 50s.  I also remember the whole "Tread Lightly!" campaign for offroaders to try to keep a good image and not wreck public lands.

People doing grossly obnoxious E36 M3 will get everybody else lumped in with them.  People who aren't grossly obnoxious, don't get any negative attention.

Flowmaster and Dynomax were already fined last year for the same things... 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
3/11/20 1:48 p.m.
DirtyBird222 said:

I see the pitchfork mafia has arrived in full swing here. 

Anyways - question for Keith: How does stuff like this affect your ability to sell a race header that is for off-road use only? 

If we were to choose to do so, we would have to have a system in place to ensure that they are only being sold for use on race cars. A checkbox on a website is not sufficient, we would need to adopt something similar to Mazda's team support program. There are no guidelines currently in place for what exactly that system has to look like, but selling to the general public with disclaimers is specifically called out as not sufficient. Vetting is required. 

_
_ Dork
3/11/20 1:48 p.m.
DirtyBird222 said:

Regardless of what you think about these guys, I don't understand why "auto enthusiast" are so delighted about this. All this does is bring more undue attention from the federales to the aftermarket that we all love and support and puts other companies under a microscope. 

For people saying "oh it was brought on by Utah physicians, blah blah blah" look at where the fines are going. 10% of that $850k are staying in Utah, the rest back to Washington. 

If you think they are annoying, change the channel, it's as easy as that. 

So you're a proponent of the diesel kind? Your idea is to ignore what they are doing? I'm sure many of us here enjoy having all the road going cars today having catalytic converters. There are SOME things that shouldn't be allowed on the streets. Blacklisting a turbo kit from a reputable company that makes quality products? Probably not necessary. Blacklisting the Chinese turbo kit that can do any screwed up thing someone wants? Needed. 

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
3/11/20 1:55 p.m.
DirtyBird222 said:

Regardless of what you think about these guys, I don't understand why "auto enthusiast" are so delighted about this.

pretty sure I'm a breathing enthusiast more than an auto enthusiast...  

_
_ Dork
3/11/20 2:13 p.m.

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

Exactly! And while the world might group us into the same category, we are NOTHING like the criminals that do this crap. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
3/11/20 2:19 p.m.

Based on the requests we get for things like "test pipes", the primary difference is visibility. 

pheller
pheller UltimaDork
3/11/20 2:22 p.m.
Knurled. said:

People doing grossly obnoxious E36 M3 will get everybody else lumped in with them.  People who aren't grossly obnoxious, don't get any negative attention.

Honestly, it's everywhere. It's troll culture. This idea that you can't just have a differing opinion, you must intentionally do things to piss off the people who have the opposite opinion. 

Whether it's claiming to desire USSR level Communism, threatening to ban all guns, open carrying AR15s, waving Nazi flags to flaunt free speech, driving a Prius or Tesla to flaunt "green credentials" or rolling coal to troll Greta Thunberg, it's like society has deemed that the only way of finding one's identity is to target someone else's. 

I just can't believe Discovery Channel has turned into such a crap channel that they'd broadcast "Diesel Brothers." I remember when Discovery was 2nd Best on actual science/nature/education shows only to PBS. 

Olemiss540
Olemiss540 Reader
3/11/20 2:30 p.m.

Honestly, I am sure our automotive hobby looks just as foolish to some as these douchnozzles look to us. Would seem easy to cast stones but I am not afraid to admit I live in a lexan house.

Good thing my car is for offroad use only or I may have EPA issues myself........

NickD
NickD PowerDork
3/11/20 2:30 p.m.
pheller said:

I just can't believe Discovery Channel has turned into such a crap channel that they'd broadcast "Diesel Brothers." I remember when Discovery was 2nd Best on actual science/nature/education shows only to PBS. 

I mean, this is a channel with multiple shows on "illegal street racing". Sure it's not real, but the concept of it is bad enough.

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt PowerDork
3/11/20 2:33 p.m.

I went through the EPA's list of enforcement actions in 2019 - they seemed to fall into two categories.

1. Importing noncomplaint engines. Somebody's tool shop buys 50 chainsaws on Alibaba, then finds out, whoops, nobody bothered certifying the engines for EPA standards.

2. Selling products that physically removed catalytic converters, diesel aftertreatment devices, or EGR from the exhaust system.

3. Tuning devices that would let a vehicle pass emissions after carrying out modifications on (2).

So far, I haven't seen any instances where the EPA went after a device that replaced an engine component with something that performed approximately the same function, whether it had actually been tested for emissions compliance or not.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
3/11/20 2:42 p.m.

In reply to pheller :

To be honest, the coal rollers make me want to do fully-involved modern drivetrain swaps in all of my vintage cars, just to prove that you can be fast while emitting nothing but rainbows and unicorn farts.

 

I can't decide if that is a good thing, a case of defining your goals as being the opposite of someone elses, or just an excuse to play with Ecoboosts.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
3/11/20 3:11 p.m.
DirtyBird222 said:

Regardless of what you think about these guys, I don't understand why "auto enthusiast" are so delighted about this. All this does is bring more undue attention from the federales to the aftermarket that we all love and support and puts other companies under a microscope. 

For people saying "oh it was brought on by Utah physicians, blah blah blah" look at where the fines are going. 10% of that $850k are staying in Utah, the rest back to Washington. 

If you think they are annoying, change the channel, it's as easy as that. 

i'm an enthusiast, and I'm happy.  But as a professional in the industry, I'm VERY happy.  When people cheat the system to make money, it takes away sales and business away from the honest, hard working companies that do meet the rules.  On top of that, when masses of cars break the rules that easily, it puts pressure on OEM's to get better results because the air is still harming people.  Not all over the place, but enough that allergies and whatnot are really made worse by the local air quality.

Not sure why cheaters are hailed as anything but cheaters.  How can that be a good thing?  How is it ok that companies like this charge you money for things that are not what they claim they are?  Customers are being stolen from.  From a consumer standpoint, dirtbags like this need to be put out of business...

You don't seen to understand that there are a lot of companies out there that meet the law, and are not at all bothered by the microscope.  They are compliant and don't cheat their customers or other companies.  They are the ones we should all get behind.

outasite
outasite HalfDork
3/11/20 3:31 p.m.

I was a mechanic when the Clean Air Act was introduced. Disabling emission devices started from day one. I was living in New Jersey at the time. Within a span of 10 years I saw air quality improve because not everyone was removing or disabling the systems. Living in Minnesota for almost 40 years and I still see/smell cars and trucks that have disabled the emission systems. People do not worry about air quality here.  Yes, it upsets me, but the law is not enforced in Minnesota. 

DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 UberDork
3/11/20 3:32 p.m.
Knurled. said:
Robbie said:

I'm not worried about the challenge at all. The rules already say that registering your car for the street is optional. How you get your car to the challenge is also optional. Similar events where both kids of cars are present would probably handle similarly.

If you do register your car, that's between you and the state. If you don't, don't drive it on the street.

Too simple?

Or, don't modify the drivetrain in emissions-noncompliant ways.  You can be fast and have fun with an unmodified drivetrain.  This is 2020, horsepower is flowing like water from the automakers.

When you are you running for HOA president? 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
3/11/20 3:37 p.m.
MadScientistMatt said:

I went through the EPA's list of enforcement actions in 2019 - they seemed to fall into two categories.

1. Importing noncomplaint engines. Somebody's tool shop buys 50 chainsaws on Alibaba, then finds out, whoops, nobody bothered certifying the engines for EPA standards.

2. Selling products that physically removed catalytic converters, diesel aftertreatment devices, or EGR from the exhaust system.

3. Tuning devices that would let a vehicle pass emissions after carrying out modifications on (2).

So far, I haven't seen any instances where the EPA went after a device that replaced an engine component with something that performed approximately the same function, whether it had actually been tested for emissions compliance or not.

 No question, actual emissions defeat devices are the top priority. Don't forget that some of the enforcement is coming from the states, the ARB has been active as well. 

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