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Maroon92
Maroon92 MegaDork
12/10/13 12:06 p.m.
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
TAParker wrote: Also I like the idea of "customer cars" too.....
I don't, I wouldn't mind more sharing between teams like Torro Rosso and Red Bull, or McLAren and Force India, Ferrari, Sauber etc, but not customer chassis. Look what Dallara has done to every other berkeleying series out there.

Doesn't bother me at all. All Indycars are Dallaras, and it has never once made me say "MAN, I wish there were more chassis manufacturers in this sport."

The golden age of open wheel was built almost completely on customer cars. Everyone was racing with Ford engines in the back of Lola chassis. Most fans are fans of drivers or fans of teams.

Tom_Spangler
Tom_Spangler Dork
12/10/13 12:13 p.m.
Adrian_Thompson wrote: I disagree, all those other things you mention are open to everyone at every race. It doesn't give one person an edge. Double points in once race is a whole different thing.

How? Finish well at the last race, you get double points. How is that not open to everyone?

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson PowerDork
12/10/13 12:26 p.m.
Tom_Spangler wrote:
Adrian_Thompson wrote: I disagree, all those other things you mention are open to everyone at every race. It doesn't give one person an edge. Double points in once race is a whole different thing.
How? Finish well at the last race, you get double points. How is that not open to everyone?

If Maldonado take you out. That is an option open (unfortunatly) to everyone. But if you go into the last race 26 point clear of the 2nd place then you get Maldonadoed you are going to be rightly pissed.

Rusnak_322
Rusnak_322 HalfDork
12/10/13 12:38 p.m.

Double points is dumb. Unless the points leader has a big problem or the points are realy close, it isn't going to make that much of a difference. What they should do it take a World Superbike approach. Make the final a double event. But start the second race of the weekend in the order that they finished in race 1 and make them start on the tires that they finshed race 1.

Bernie could sell more advertising and get more viewers for the event.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/10/13 12:43 p.m.

To Maldonado is my new favorite verb.

Of course, if it's the last race of the season and the title is on the line, you could also call it Schumachering.

I think Indy looks like a spec race myself, I don't like identical cars - either as a result of convergent evolution controlled by the rules, or a flat out spec chassis. F1 needs to have innovation and engineering.

The article linked in Adrian's first post does state that three of the last 20 championships would have ended differently with the new double points rule. Interesting, both Vettel and Schumi would have lost a crown.

Tom_Spangler
Tom_Spangler Dork
12/10/13 12:47 p.m.
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
Tom_Spangler wrote:
Adrian_Thompson wrote: I disagree, all those other things you mention are open to everyone at every race. It doesn't give one person an edge. Double points in once race is a whole different thing.
How? Finish well at the last race, you get double points. How is that not open to everyone?
If Maldonado take you out. That is an option open (unfortunatly) to everyone. But if you go into the last race 26 point clear of the 2nd place then you get Maldonadoed you are going to be rightly pissed.

That could happen any time the points are close going into the final race. Which is the kind of situation they are trying to create here. I know I started tuning out this year around September when everything was pretty much locked up.

Again, I do think it's unnecessary, but it's hardly worth all the whining and gnashing of teeth that I'm seeing in this thread. We are talking about one race out of 19. It probably won't even make that much of a difference. I would argue that changing the points from the top 6 to the top 10 was a much bigger change, and I don't recall a big outcry over that.

alfadriver
alfadriver PowerDork
12/10/13 1:27 p.m.
Maroon92 wrote:
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
TAParker wrote: Also I like the idea of "customer cars" too.....
I don't, I wouldn't mind more sharing between teams like Torro Rosso and Red Bull, or McLAren and Force India, Ferrari, Sauber etc, but not customer chassis. Look what Dallara has done to every other berkeleying series out there.
Doesn't bother me at all. All Indycars are Dallaras, and it has never once made me say "MAN, I wish there were more chassis manufacturers in this sport." The golden age of open wheel was built almost completely on customer cars. Everyone was racing with Ford engines in the back of Lola chassis. Most fans are fans of drivers or fans of teams.

You are thinking of the golden age of Indy cars, or one of the golden ages of indy car.

F1 has always been about building your own car. Only the engine and trans were consistently purchased.

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson PowerDork
12/10/13 2:22 p.m.
Tom_Spangler wrote:
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
Tom_Spangler wrote:
Adrian_Thompson wrote: I disagree, all those other things you mention are open to everyone at every race. It doesn't give one person an edge. Double points in once race is a whole different thing.
How? Finish well at the last race, you get double points. How is that not open to everyone?
If Maldonado take you out. That is an option open (unfortunatly) to everyone. But if you go into the last race 26 point clear of the 2nd place then you get Maldonadoed you are going to be rightly pissed.
That could happen any time the points are close going into the final race. Which is the kind of situation they are trying to create here. I know I started tuning out this year around September when everything was pretty much locked up. Again, I do think it's unnecessary, but it's hardly worth all the whining and gnashing of teeth that I'm seeing in this thread. We are talking about one race out of 19. It probably won't even make that much of a difference. I would argue that changing the points from the top 6 to the top 10 was a much bigger change, and I don't recall a big outcry over that.

Damn it Tom, we agree on everything except Politics, how can you disagree with me on this.

Yes, you can get Maldonardoed in any race, but if it happens in the last one, it's effectively happening to you twice. Not only would it have cost Shumacher one of his 6 championships (no, he didn't win in 94 he cheated), it would have cost Vettel one of his and Massa would have been a champion for 12 months, not 15 seconds. So I think it is a big deal

Tom_Spangler
Tom_Spangler Dork
12/10/13 2:36 p.m.
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
Tom_Spangler wrote:
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
Tom_Spangler wrote:
Adrian_Thompson wrote: I disagree, all those other things you mention are open to everyone at every race. It doesn't give one person an edge. Double points in once race is a whole different thing.
How? Finish well at the last race, you get double points. How is that not open to everyone?
If Maldonado take you out. That is an option open (unfortunatly) to everyone. But if you go into the last race 26 point clear of the 2nd place then you get Maldonadoed you are going to be rightly pissed.
That could happen any time the points are close going into the final race. Which is the kind of situation they are trying to create here. I know I started tuning out this year around September when everything was pretty much locked up. Again, I do think it's unnecessary, but it's hardly worth all the whining and gnashing of teeth that I'm seeing in this thread. We are talking about one race out of 19. It probably won't even make that much of a difference. I would argue that changing the points from the top 6 to the top 10 was a much bigger change, and I don't recall a big outcry over that.
Damn it Tom, we agree on everything except Politics, how can you disagree with me on this. Yes, you can get Maldonardoed in any race, but if it happens in the last one, it's effectively happening to you twice. Not only would it have cost Shumacher one of his 6 championships (no, he didn't win in 94 he cheated), it would have cost Vettel one of his and Massa would have been a champion for 12 months, not 15 seconds. So I think it is a big deal

3 years out of the last 20. Big whoop.

Also, wouldn't Prost have one more championship and Senna one less if they'd counted all the races instead of the top 9 or whatever it was back in 88? This sort of tinkering is nothing new.

codrus
codrus Dork
12/10/13 4:04 p.m.
Keith Tanner wrote: The article linked in Adrian's first post does state that three of the last 20 championships would have ended differently with the new double points rule. Interesting, both Vettel and Schumi would have lost a crown.

One thing to keep in mind in all retrospective "if the points had worked like this then X would have won" discussions is that the teams and drivers are very aware of the points system and make decisions in races based upon those rules. If the points system had been different, the teams would have been aware of it, and those decisions might well have gone another way, going for riskier passes, pushing the car harder and risking engine failure, etc.

TAParker
TAParker Reader
12/10/13 4:07 p.m.
Maroon92 wrote:
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
TAParker wrote: Also I like the idea of "customer cars" too.....
I don't, I wouldn't mind more sharing between teams like Torro Rosso and Red Bull, or McLAren and Force India, Ferrari, Sauber etc, but not customer chassis. Look what Dallara has done to every other berkeleying series out there.
Doesn't bother me at all. All Indycars are Dallaras, and it has never once made me say "MAN, I wish there were more chassis manufacturers in this sport."

Agreed..........Most F1 cars are so similar in appearance now anyways.....only Marussia was vastly different in appearance this past year....

wbjones
wbjones PowerDork
12/10/13 6:54 p.m.
Keith Tanner wrote: To Maldonado is my new favorite verb. Of course, if it's the last race of the season and the title is on the line, you could also call it Schumachering. I think Indy looks like a spec race myself, I don't like identical cars - either as a result of convergent evolution controlled by the rules, or a flat out spec chassis. F1 needs to have innovation and engineering. The article linked in Adrian's first post does state that three of the last 20 championships would have ended differently with the new double points rule. Interesting, both Vettel and Schumi would have lost a crown.

didn't Senna and Prost pull this crap long before Shummi came around ?

wbjones
wbjones PowerDork
12/10/13 6:56 p.m.

and wouldn't Gordon have at least one more championship if NASCAR hadn't started the bullE36 M3 call The Chase ?

LainfordExpress
LainfordExpress HalfDork
12/10/13 7:03 p.m.
Rusnak_322 wrote: Unless the points leader has a big problem or the points are realy close, it isn't going to make that much of a difference.

It'll definitely make a difference. I think they announced that if it had been in place starting in 2007, Massa would've been a World Champion, and Alonso would've won a third... so, clearly it will make a difference.

It is stupid because why should the last race mean more? What about Button for Brawn? They dominated the early season and coasted to the finish? Was their early season achievement not worth as much as other teams improvement?

It unfairly rewards a team that gets better as the season goes on and not one that knocks it out of the park and gets a big lead but can't sustain development of their car.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/10/13 7:59 p.m.
wbjones wrote: didn't Senna and Prost pull this crap long before Shummi came around ?

Yeah, but not to a Canadian . It's still a crap move regardless.

Since this is such a simple change to the points scoring, I think it's fair to say how it would have affected other years. At the very least, it's some perspective.

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson PowerDork
12/11/13 7:49 a.m.
wbjones wrote: didn't Senna and Prost pull this crap long before Shummi came around ?

Schumi is a douche bag who regularly cheated and has no place being a bastion of the sport. Illegal traction control in 94 and still needed to punt Hill off to win the WDC that year. In 97 he deliberately tried to punt Jacques off the track. In 98 he 'served' his 10 sec stop and go penalty after he had crossed the finish line. Then there's pretending to still be suffering from a broken leg once he'd missed his shot at the championship and couldn't be bothered to support his team mate Irvine. It was only when his boss called and found he was out playing soccer that he was order back to work. Do we have to go into the deliberate crash at Monaco, or all the other unsportsmanlike behavior? I rate Schumacher, while a great talent as the least deserving person to be called a world champion at anything other than being a douchebag.

Senna was another scum bag. HE frequently drove people off track and he even admitted to taking both himself and Prost off in 90 to win the championship. The year earlier when they collided it was because Prost just refused to be bullied by Senna's normally 'move out of my way or we will collide' tactics. That time Prost didn't give so they both went off. YEs Prost could have moved over, but why should he. Also on Senna his championship in 88 was almost as much as a farce as this stupid double points for the last race BS they are doing for next year. For 88 only the best 11 results counted, so despite Prost finishing 1st or 2nd in every race he finished and out scoring Senna 105 to 94 points, Senna won the championship. Senna is the second least deserving douchebag to be called a world champion.

OK rant over, I'm off for my morning coffee now

rob_lewis
rob_lewis SuperDork
12/11/13 8:51 a.m.

I think the bigger picture of all of this has to do with safety. What? you say, has Rob added a little "adult beverage" to his coffee this morning? Maybe, but hear me out.

The glory days of F1 that many still refer to happen to also be some of the more violent ones where multiple drivers a year were killed. The idea of building whatever was fastest, safety be damned, was the norm of the sport. It made for some awesome racing and more action on the track (to some degree, as there were always dominate teams). Imagine if the rules weren't put into place to slow the cars down and, thereby, making them safer? I'd guess that with "unlimited" rules, you'd see 300+ mph cars on some tracks and much higher overall speeds on every track. I would also guess that the number of teams that truly dominate (bigger wallets) would be even MORE disparate than the ones that don't have as much funds. I'd guess a team like Marussia or Caterham would either not compete or their cars would be so unsafe, driving them would be dangerous to the driver and the other teams.

Putting things like DRS, KERS, no fueling, specific rules about wings, heights, weights, safety equipment, etc. not only levels the playing field a bit, but helps to keep the cars slower and safer, thereby protecting the drivers more. (In theory, but Senna was the last driver to be killed, so it looks to ring true).

Secondarily, is the racing action. I would guess that everyone on this board prefers close racing to parade laps. Although NASCAR is boring with it's roundy-round and arbitrary yellow flags to bunch up the field, you can't deny the appeal of close racing and regular jockeying for position. Indy and F1 are trying to do similar things with push to pass, spec bodies, KERS, DRS, etc. All with the intent of keeping drivers safe and bunching up the field.

While I agree that much of it seems gimmicky, anything that provides much closer racing is good in my book. Although Vettel has dominated over the past 4 years, there is still plenty of racing action going on and that's good for the sport. There needs to be more, however.

One thing I want to note that I've always found amusing and contradictory around here. Spec classes in amateur racing (Spec Miata, Spec e30, Spec Rx7, et. al.) are touted as great classes, yet when professional levels move more towards spec classes, it's considered boring and stupid. While, at the same time, arguing the parade lap nature of F1 makes it boring too.

Yeah, Bernie is a bit of a nutball (ok, a big nutball) and some of his more outlandish ideas (random water on the track) are crazy, but the purpose of providing more close racing is sound.

-Rob

Thinkkker
Thinkkker UltraDork
12/11/13 9:22 a.m.
rob_lewis wrote: One thing I want to note that I've always found amusing and contradictory around here. Spec classes in amateur racing (Spec Miata, Spec e30, Spec Rx7, et. al.) are touted as great classes, yet when professional levels move more towards spec classes, it's considered boring and stupid. While, at the same time, arguing the parade lap nature of F1 makes it boring too.

See, I may be in the minority, but part of the reason I like F1 is for the engineering. Yes Nascar is fast, so are other "specish" classes. They do not have the extra stuff built in where you can do this in the back room and gain a huge advantage.

I like Red Bull, and the big reason is Newey and Horner. Seb is a dick on track, but at that level I think its part of what it takes.

With all the cars, I like the variances and all the little details that add to the "Im better than you" list.

I could be in the minority but that is my take.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker
Giant Purple Snorklewacker MegaDork
12/11/13 9:27 a.m.
Adrian_Thompson wrote: Schumi is a douche bag who regularly cheated and has no place being a bastion of the sport. Illegal traction control in 94 and still needed to punt Hill off to win the WDC that year. In 97 he deliberately tried to punt Jacques off the track. In 98 he 'served' his 10 sec stop and go penalty after he had crossed the finish line. Then there's pretending to still be suffering from a broken leg once he'd missed his shot at the championship and couldn't be bothered to support his team mate Irvine. It was only when his boss called and found he was out playing soccer that he was order back to work. Do we have to go into the deliberate crash at Monaco, or all the other unsportsmanlike behavior? I rate Schumacher, while a great talent as the least deserving person to be called a world champion at anything other than being a douchebag. Senna was another scum bag. HE frequently drove people off track and he even admitted to taking both himself and Prost off in 90 to win the championship. The year earlier when they collided it was because Prost just refused to be bullied by Senna's normally 'move out of my way or we will collide' tactics. That time Prost didn't give so they both went off. YEs Prost could have moved over, but why should he. Also on Senna his championship in 88 was almost as much as a farce as this stupid double points for the last race BS they are doing for next year. For 88 only the best 11 results counted, so despite Prost finishing 1st or 2nd in every race he finished and out scoring Senna 105 to 94 points, Senna won the championship. Senna is the second least deserving douchebag to be called a world champion. OK rant over, I'm off for my morning coffee now

+berkeleying infinity

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson PowerDork
12/11/13 10:36 a.m.
rob_lewis wrote: The glory days of F1 that many still refer to happen to also be some of the more violent ones where multiple drivers a year were killed. The idea of building whatever was fastest, safety be damned, was the norm of the sport. It made for some awesome racing and more action on the track (to some degree, as there were always dominate teams). Imagine if the rules weren't put into place to slow the cars down and, thereby, making them safer? I'd guess that with "unlimited" rules, you'd see 300+ mph cars on some tracks and much higher overall speeds on every track. I would also guess that the number of teams that truly dominate (bigger wallets) would be even MORE disparate than the ones that don't have as much funds. I'd guess a team like Marussia or Caterham would either not compete or their cars would be so unsafe, driving them would be dangerous to the driver and the other teams. Putting things like DRS, KERS, no fueling, specific rules about wings, heights, weights, safety equipment, etc. not only levels the playing field a bit, but helps to keep the cars slower and safer, thereby protecting the drivers more. (In theory, but Senna was the last driver to be killed, so it looks to ring true). -Rob

I see what you're getting at but I don't 100% agree. I think what people are most up in arms about is the arbitrary rules, especially the double points for the last race of the year etc. That has nothing to do with safety and the golden days didn't need it. Also DRS, that's needed to help passing which was becoming impossible with dirty air and incredibly short braking distances. The 'cleaner' air of older cars and longer stopping distances didn't make racing dangerous. No one died because of lack of down force (only the sudden loss of it) and it's probably been 40 plus years since someone had a major accident due to brake fade (No Buemi’s wheels coming off at Shanghai wasn’t brake fade!!!) KERS is similar to push to past in the old boost buggy days, it's been around forever and I'm fine with that. One area where I would argue F1 has become more dangerous is the silly tires we had. How many accidents were there with tires delaminating in 2013? It cost Hammy a win for sure as well. The last time I recall that happening was when it cost Mansel the WDC at Adelaide in 1986. I'll post later about fatalities, accidents and safety, but I don't think anything that has been done to increase safety has reduced the show or spectacle in any way.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/11/13 10:56 a.m.

I don't mind KERS as it's driver controlled, and the driver can decide when to use the limited amount of extra power. This has led to some interesting passes and defences. It has a legitimate place in any race series - the name alone describes it well. Heck, it's basically the same tech as found in a Prius.

DRS passes I find boring, and it's so artificial that it's a joke. Can you imagine if NASCAR (officially) mandated something like that? That's the sort of contrivance that needs to go away.

I think the engine rules should be fairly open. The fuel flow constraints that we're seeing in the top classes are a clever way to limit power and encourage some really interesting thinking. Sure, some guys will spend lots of money. And others will just buy an engine from another supplier, just the way it works now and the way it worked back in the DFV days.

There's nothing wrong with trying to slow the cars down a bit. But that doesn't mean it has to be a spec class. Implementing some simple rules such as the fuel flow one will limit the cars but not make them all the same.

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson PowerDork
12/11/13 11:46 a.m.

OK, let’s look at safety and deaths in F1. Rob_lewis implied that the golden age of F1 was dangerous and that we are complaining of safety measures making F1 more boring. I disagree, I don’t think anything that has changed for safety has had a negative impact on ‘the spectacle’ Let’s look back over the last 40 years starting in 73.

Roger Williamson Zandvoort. Tire failure (which we had in 2013 to try and make for a better show), so yes you can argue this one, although the tires then weren’t artificially crap as they were this year. Also once the car flipped it burst into flames, better fire prevention and suppression doesn’t diminish the show unless you are morbid. Inexcusably bad marshals with poor equipment didn’t try to save him. Good marshals don’t diminish the show.

Cevert Watkins Glen. Qualifying accident. Poor structural safety of the tub and crappy barriers killed him by coming loose. Stronger tubs and barriers that came loose to not affect the spectacle or the ability of people to race.

Revson Kyalami 74. Suspension failure. Parts that last make the show better not worse

Helmuth Koinigg Watkins Glen 74. E36 M3ty Armco again as with Cevert, although this time even more gruesome as it decapitated the poor guy.

Donohue Osterreichring 75. Tire failure again. But as will Williamson poor tires were an accident not like today where they were by design.

Tom Pryce Kyalami 77, probably the most pointless death in ‘recent’ F1 history. A marshal ran across the track past a blind brow so poor Pryce hit him at full speed and his head was crushed by the 40lb fire extinguisher the marshal (also killed) was carrying.

Brian McGuire, non-championship Brands hatch F1 race 1977, practice accident a half-shaft failure, flipped and crashed unduly hard against the barriers the car was destroyed and a marshal was also tragically killed. Again making cars stronger and improving track safety doesn’t reduce the spectacle.

Ronnie Peterson, Monza 77. Multi car accident. What really killed him was poor medical attention. An embolism from his crushed legs got to his brain. Prof Sid Watkins was very upset about this one if you read his book. Again, making safer stronger cars doesn’t reduce the show.

Patrick Depailler, testing at Hockenheim 1980. This was also really really stupid. Suspension failure, probably due to the massive loads put on by the still developing ground effect cars lead to a crash. He ended up upside down on the Armco, even worse, the catch fencing that could have slowed the car and saved him was for some unfathomable reason rolled up behind the Armco and may even have contributed to the crash. This is one area where real changes were eventually made to ban ground effect cars and skirts, once all the stupid rule dodges were got past that improved safety and the spectacle.

Gille Villeneuve Belgian GP Zolder 82. Everyone knows this one. A massive crash in qualifying completely destroyed the car and killed him. I’d argue todays Quali 1, 2 and 3 provides a better spectacle (at least for TV) and is safer.

Riccardo Paletti the just renamed Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, Canadian GP 1982. Race should not have been started as Pironi on pole had stalled and was waving his arms in the air. Some cars hit him but were OK, the inexperience Paletti came from 23rd on the grid and smashed into Pironi’s car. FYI a fireball erupted after Sid Watkins was on the scene and engulfed him too. Better officials and stronger cars don’t detract from the show.

One of my hero’s from my youth. Elio De Angelis, testing Paul Ricard 1986. Another stupid accident. A survivable crash in testing that killed him because there were no marshals present to get to the car and put out a fire. His only injuries were a broken collar bone, it was the fire that horribly killed him. Testing is now all but banned and when it happens there is the same safety crews, helicopters, medical staff as a race weekend.

Another one of my favorites as I went to watch him race in FF, F3, BTCC and British F3000. Roland Ratzenberger. San Marino GP 1994 Qualifying accident, he’d already damaged his front wing but didn’t come into the pits. Next lap doing 200mph the downforce damaged the wing and he crashed. Telemetry says he was doing 195 mph when he hit. That would be a touch accident today, but better circuit safety doesn’t make the racing less exciting.

You know who now don’t you.
Ayarton Senna da Silva, again San Marino GP 1994. Car bottomed out and left the track on cold tires after hitting a bump, and what normally have been an not to severe crash became the most infamous crash since LeMans 55. The accident wasn’t that bad, but the freak occurrence of the wishbone puncturing his helmet and head is what killed him. This is what lead to suspension/wheel tethers which have undoubtable made things safer with no effect on the racing. It also lead to more protection around the head, which doesn’t’ affect the racing, but I have heard some old times complain you can’t see the drivers working the cars, but in the 80’s I heard the then old timers complain all you could see was the (very exposed) head and shoulders and you could see Moss and co working the wheel. I call BS on all of it. At Detroit last year I was amazed how much you could see of the driver looking down into the cockpit of the Indy cars, you could really see them working.

Last one is poor Maria de Villota who died a year after her testing accident due to complications. I don’t’ know how hitting the loading part of a semi with your head has anything to do with racing though.

Pushing it a bit here, but there is also Fritz Glatz driving a 96 Vintage Arrows Footwork who died at ‘Most’ in the Czech republic at a Euro BOSS (Big Open wheel Single Seaters) historic F1 race. I don’t know the details but he went over a curb, the car got airborn and went end over end completely destroying the car. I’ve no idea what the circuit safety standards were, but I bet not up to modern F1 standards.

I’ll leave out John Dawson-Damer who died at Goodward of a heart attack driving a 1969 Lotus 63 and also killed a poor marshal as I don’t think it’s really relevant.

So, I’d say that none of the accidents that have happened in the last 40 years have anything to do with the spectacle part of ‘the golden’ age of F1. I would say that if you could apply todays safety knowledge and tracks to the cars of yesterday we would still have had great racing, but with fewer deaths and injuries. I can’t think of one thing that has been done to help safety that has improved the spectacle. I’d argue the opposite. You could say traction control and ABS made racing ‘safer’ but they were band. You could argue that tires that don’t delaminate are safer, yet they were written out of this last year.

On the whole I don’t think the racing is bad, even with the same guy winning, there have been some spectacular races from 2nd place down. I would change some things in F1, but nothing to do with safety.

I think the biggest improvements in driver safety have been (in my order of magnitude)
Carbon fiber tubs
Circuit run off and barriers
Banning ground effects
Drivers heads side protection
Wheel tethers
Minimum ground clearance
Tires construction (2013 excluded)

Maroon92
Maroon92 MegaDork
12/11/13 11:50 a.m.
alfadriver wrote:
Maroon92 wrote:
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
TAParker wrote: Also I like the idea of "customer cars" too.....
I don't, I wouldn't mind more sharing between teams like Torro Rosso and Red Bull, or McLAren and Force India, Ferrari, Sauber etc, but not customer chassis. Look what Dallara has done to every other berkeleying series out there.
Doesn't bother me at all. All Indycars are Dallaras, and it has never once made me say "MAN, I wish there were more chassis manufacturers in this sport." The golden age of open wheel was built almost completely on customer cars. Everyone was racing with Ford engines in the back of Lola chassis. Most fans are fans of drivers or fans of teams.
You are thinking of the golden age of Indy cars, or one of the golden ages of indy car. F1 has always been about building your own car. Only the engine and trans were consistently purchased.

So when 15 Cooper chassis contested the 1960 season, they were all Works team cars? I don't think so.

The first Williams chassis were built by ISO, and the first Hesketh was a leased March chassis. There have been customer teams buying chassis for as long as the sport has existed.

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson PowerDork
12/11/13 11:54 a.m.

I am in an F1 fan minority that I don't actually mind DRS. I think it's a result rather than a problem. The issue is cars are so 'dirty' you can't get close enough through the corners to be able to pull out and pass in many places as you lose down force and overheat you bubble gum tires. This one should have been fixed this year. Massively reduce the down for available from the wings and body but give cars much more mechanical grip from bigger real tires. Then they can run closer to each other and pass without needing an aero advantage. I'd also look at lengthening stopping distances, carbon brakes are here to stay, but less aero grip would also mean longer stopping distances and help further separate the Vettles from the Crashanado's

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson PowerDork
12/11/13 12:00 p.m.
Maroon92 wrote:
alfadriver wrote:
Maroon92 wrote:
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
TAParker wrote: Also I like the idea of "customer cars" too.....
I don't, I wouldn't mind more sharing between teams like Torro Rosso and Red Bull, or McLAren and Force India, Ferrari, Sauber etc, but not customer chassis. Look what Dallara has done to every other berkeleying series out there.
Doesn't bother me at all. All Indycars are Dallaras, and it has never once made me say "MAN, I wish there were more chassis manufacturers in this sport." The golden age of open wheel was built almost completely on customer cars. Everyone was racing with Ford engines in the back of Lola chassis. Most fans are fans of drivers or fans of teams.
You are thinking of the golden age of Indy cars, or one of the golden ages of indy car. F1 has always been about building your own car. Only the engine and trans were consistently purchased.
So when 15 Cooper chassis contested the 1960 season, they were all Works team cars? I don't think so. The first Williams chassis were built by ISO, and the first Hesketh was a leased March chassis. There have been customer teams buying chassis for as long as the sport has existed.

It was 79 or 80 before teams had to have unique chassis, you still don't have to build your own car though, it just has to be unique for you. As recently as 2010 HRT bought their chassis from Dallara, they did not design or build them.

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