F150/250 question for Alfa

Hey Alfadriver- I know you have some experience with the Ford engines from an insiders perspective. I'm looking at the F's 150 and 250. 3.5 eco, 3.5 power(hybrid), 7.3, and 6.7 diesel in the 250/350. I'm predominately towing my 5-6k LB Airstream in the Sierra (0-7000ft)  and commuting to SFO from Sac for work. 
 

Do you have a preference or any insight? I'm towing 3000/year and commuting 6000. I'm concerned with long term reliability of the turbo 3.5 vs na 5.0, and looking also at 3/4 ton diesel reliability. My main concerns are: 

1. I don't want to have to mess with it for many years.  
2. I'd like some semblance of fuel efficiency.  
3. I'd like to have a towing situation that is comfortable.  

 

Thanks, man!

I won't speak for Alfa, but I've towed a bit with some of those. 
 

My current driver is a 2012 EB Platinum.  It's been dead nuts reliable, and a super comfortable ride.  Plenty of pep when needed. I think the tow ratings are over rated. My EB is rated to tow 13,500, but I wouldn't be comfortable doing that for long distances. (Although I plan to tow a 13K load in a few weeks, but only a few hundred miles. I'll let you know how that goes). 
 

I also had a 1999 7.3L F-250. It was pretty much the exact opposite. Uncomfortable, noisy, dirty, and pretty brutal to drive. But a fantastic tow beast. Incredibly stable. Never found anything it wasn't good at towing.  

I would never buy a 7.3L again. I've outgrown it. They are long in the tooth and outdated. Their only useful purpose is as a 2nd vehicle tow pig, but they are all high mileage and have a premium on them that is too high for what you get.  If it's just an occasional tow pig, an LS can do most of what the 7.3 can do much cheaper.  If I was a full time RVer, I would consider a diesel, but probably not the 7.3L.  They are just too old (the newest one is 19 years old)

I have minimal towing experience at higher elevations, so I'll avoid comment on that.

Best of luck!

BTW, the 3.5 EB has a higher factory tow rating than the 5.0 na. Just a thought. 

F150eb max tow is the answer. I'm sure the 250 would tow "better" but the f150 with some airbags and maybe a weight distribution hitch is more than enough to be comfortable, and the bigger truck is significantly worse as a commuter vehicle especially if you need to park it anywhere.

In reply to SV reX :

I'm betting he meant the newer 7.3 gas V8, but if not, I'll agree with everything you said about the 7.3 diesel.  It performs its job well, but it's ridiculously overrated given the more modern options.  I have a 6.8 V10 now, and I like it better than the 7.3 we used to own.

My situation is different, but if I was shopping for a new truck, the 7.3 gas F250 would be at or near the top of my list.  It's simple compared to everything else, and should be way overbuilt.  I know the new half tons are rated to tow damn near anything, but I don't think I'm comfortable with that yet.

In reply to bigeyedfish :

You may be right, but the 7.3 gas burner would be a completely different price range than the rest of his list.

He did say diesel 250s and 350s. We shall see...

If we are talking new vehicles, I think all diesels are way more truck than is necessary for occasionally towing a 6000 lb Airstream.  Most newer 150's will tow that just fine.

In reply to Teh E36 M3 :

I own a 2016 F150 5.0  4x4 I bought it new and have 82,xxx miles on it now.   It towed a 42xx pound Jaguar from San Diego, to Minneapolis, across the mountains  with more than 1,000 pounds of car parts in the bed.   Doing 70 mph I averaged 17 mpg.   I also tow my 6000 pound cruiser in and out of the local lake.   It has Flex fuel which allows me to save an average of $1 a gallon over 87 octane gs.  Plus heavily loaded it feels much more powerful uphill as well as staying cooler when the temps get 90-100+ 
   Going to and from work I get 22-24 mpg  or 20-22 with E85  cold weather costs me a couple of mpg 

  
     To this point I've never had an issue. My Ford has been great.  I selected the V8 for its proven reliability and well, one last V8 in my life.  

Oh I assumed he meant modern diesels as well. If he did mean old diesels, then yeah 100000% modern f150 is the right answer, don't even think about the older trucks for this use case.

bigeyedfish said:

In reply to SV reX :

I'm betting he meant the newer 7.3 gas V8, but if not, I'll agree with everything you said about the 7.3 diesel.  It performs its job well, but it's ridiculously overrated given the more modern options.  I have a 6.8 V10 now, and I like it better than the 7.3 we used to own.

My situation is different, but if I was shopping for a new truck, the 7.3 gas F250 would be at or near the top of my list.  It's simple compared to everything else, and should be way overbuilt.  I know the new half tons are rated to tow damn near anything, but I don't think I'm comfortable with that yet.

 My Nephew bought a F250 a year after I bought mine.   He's had the transmission rebuilt once and the rear end swaped with a junkyard one  because the cost of rebuilding it by the dealer was past silly. He's never towed anything heavy with it or worked it that hard. 
    Now maybe he got a lemon or I got the only great F150. But I suspect that a F250 is way too much overkill for 90% who buy them.  They just like spending extra money. 
  My F150 has a 14,600 towing capacity and a back up assist for those too unskilled to back up a trailer. ( I have never used it ). 

SV reX said:

In reply to bigeyedfish :

You may be right, but the 7.3 gas burner would be a completely different price range than the rest of his list.

He did say diesel 250s and 350s. We shall see...

The 7.3 gas motor is less expensive than the 6.7 diesel, so... ?

I have a 2022 F-250 6.7 diesel that I use for towing my enclosed trailer and race car between the bay area and various tracks.  Probably 8000-8500 on the trailer (I really need to weigh it), some might say that's overkill, I say that overkill is the best kind.  I put airbags in the back due to the tongue weight, but other than that I have had zero concerns, it handles it like a champ.  I can't comment on long-term reliability though, mine is only about 18 months old and has about 10K miles (3/4 of which are towing).   No problems so far, for what that's worth.  No experience with the new 7.3, although I've heard good things about it.

The creature comforts in the new truck are way better than they were in my previous 2007 Chevy.  I probably wouldn't choose to commute in it, but that may just be because I'm not really a "truck guy".

Guess we need more info...

I assumed older vehicles, because the price tags of new ones seem absolutely absurd for this small a towing duty, but that's just me...

Do we know a price range we are talking about?

SV reX said:

If we are talking new vehicles, I think all diesels are way more truck than is necessary for occasionally towing a 6000 lb Airstream.  Most newer 150's will tow that just fine.

Indeed. I have towed our 30' travel trailer, which weighs about 7500-8000 fully loaded, all over the US with our 2015 Expedition. And an Expedition is heavier and more softly sprung than an F-150. It tows like an absolute dream, sometimes I forget it's back there.

Here's a shot from just yesterday when we got home from our last trip. By the way, the trailer will soon be for sale, canine helpers not included:

In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :

When you're ready to sell, let me know. I might be interested. 

In reply to Teh E36 M3 :

Man, I had a long-ish message, and touched the wrong part of my screen and lost it all. 
 

Anyway, starting with the 3.5 turbos, either of the two versions in the last decade will do you fine. The engines have turned out to be really strong and with reasonably few expensive problems. And two things to add- the TIVCT version in the trucks is the same one used in the production GT, so the engine is very strong. Second, F150- risk that, risk the company. 
 

I'm sure many will chime in with economy with similar duty cycles as you plan. 
 

That being said, I am genuinely interested in the 7.3 Godzilla- and it has a good trans behind it, too. This engine exists because of diesel issues, so it's built to be bullet proof. I know it was built to run peak everything without any enrichment. The big issue I see with it is the package you get- I would much rather DD an f150 than 250. But you may feel otherwise. 

Both will do what you want, both are intended to take a lot of abuse. 

Decide what chassis you need, then decide what motor works best for your application.  I'll assume for the moment that we're talking about newer vehicles and provide my experience. 

I recently moved on from a 2013 F-150 Crew Cab 3.5 Ecoboost.  I used it to tow my 7k-ish enclosed race trailer, so similar weight and aero to the OP's camper.  The 3.5 was very reliable and had decent gas mileage; I saw around 14mpg city and 18-19 highway unloaded.  It was manageable for city driving but far from optimal.  Parking a full-size truck in the city is a PITA.  The motor was fine for towing the trailer, but pretty thirsty (9-11mpg) and small fuel tank meant lots of gas stops.  The chassis is the reason I ultimately moved on.  Trailer hitch had a maximum 500lb tongue load, so a weight distributing hitch was mandatory.  Payload was restrictive at 1610lb.  With 800lb of tongue weight, 100lb of weight distributing gear, and 200lb of me, I only had 500 lb left for other people or stuff while towing.  I made it work for a long time but I grew tired of the constant planning and dealing with the weight distribution gear on race weekends.

I moved to a 2020 F-250 Superduty a few months ago.  The 6.7L diesel was way overkill for my needs, and I couldn't justify the $10k premium to get one.  Diesel gas is horrifically expensive right now, and they're super complex/expensive to maintain.  Everybody's talking about the 7.3 gasser, but it's actually less fuel efficient than the base 6.2L motor and comes with the 10 speed auto trans that's still giving a lot of people issues.  I opted for the 6.2L with 6 speed trans, and I'm happy with my decision.  For daily duty I get around 13mpg city and can get around 18mpg highway if I drive the speed limit.  It's slightly more miserable for city driving because it's taller and longer than the F-150, but it's the same width and has a better turning radius so the difference isn't as great as you would think.  I find it very comfortable when unloaded, certainly no worse than the F-150.  Even though power/torque are about the same as the 3.5 EB, the SD chassis is far superior for towing.  3500lb payload and 1350 tongue weight mean I just hook up the trailer and go, and never worry about how much I'm carrying.  It gets around 12mpg towing the trailer, and the 36 gal tank means much better range.  Even without the WDH it's rock solid when towing.

I think a F-150 3.5EB with max payload package would be ideal for the OP's needs, but they're rare as hen's teeth and command a premium price.  He could certainly manage without the max payload, but there's extra planning/hassle involved if you're traveling with a family of four and their stuff.  For similar or even less money, an F-250 with the 6.2L/6 speed is a much more capable truck that should also be more reliable.  If I had to do it all over again I would make the same choice.

Why not get a cheap easy car for the commute?  20 year old Civic, Corolla, etc.  My ND Miata gets most of my city driving.  I would quickly come to hate a full-size truck if I had to drive it around downtown San Francisco very often.

In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :

Your payload ratings for the EB surprise me. Mine is 1093# (and I run much more than that continuously without trouble)

Apparently, the early F150 EBs were released with payload ratings that were artificially low based on preliminary testing. Ford later revised these ratings without any changes to the truck:

Ford revises payload ratings

There is no way an F150 maxes out at 500# payload. 

In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :

The first thing we did with my friend's f150 was rip off the worthless stock hitch receiver and replace it with a 10k rated aftermarket one (iirc there's also a version that lets you keep the stock hitch since it's semi-integrated into the rear bumper structure). The second thing was airbags on the rear axle. I honestly have no idea where we are relative to the payload capacity, but so far in probably >15k miles of towing we've had absolutely zero issues, including running on the stock tires for nearly all of that time. A lot of those miles have had 3 adults and a pile of luggage in the truck, and some amount of wheels/tires/jack/bikes in the bed. When you say max payload package, do you mean max tow package? Because I agree that that's an absolute must if you're going to tow anything more than like 50% of the truck's rated capacity.

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

Decide what chassis you need, then decide what motor works best for your application.  I'll assume for the moment that we're talking about newer vehicles and provide my experience. 

I recently moved on from a 2013 F-150 Crew Cab 3.5 Ecoboost.  I used it to tow my 7k-ish enclosed race trailer, so similar weight and aero to the OP's camper.  The 3.5 was very reliable and had decent gas mileage; I saw around 14mpg city and 18-19 highway unloaded.  It was manageable for city driving but far from optimal.  Parking a full-size truck in the city is a PITA.  The motor was fine for towing the trailer, but pretty thirsty (9-11mpg) and small fuel tank meant lots of gas stops.  The chassis is the reason I ultimately moved on.  Trailer hitch had a maximum 500lb tongue load, so a weight distributing hitch was mandatory.  Payload was restrictive at 1610lb.  With 800lb of tongue weight, 100lb of weight distributing gear, and 200lb of me, I only had 500 lb left for other people or stuff while towing.  I made it work for a long time but I grew tired of the constant planning and dealing with the weight distribution gear on race weekends.

I moved to a 2020 F-250 Superduty a few months ago.  The 6.7L diesel was way overkill for my needs, and I couldn't justify the $10k premium to get one.  Diesel gas is horrifically expensive right now, and they're super complex/expensive to maintain.  Everybody's talking about the 7.3 gasser, but it's actually less fuel efficient than the base 6.2L motor and comes with the 10 speed auto trans that's still giving a lot of people issues.  I opted for the 6.2L with 6 speed trans, and I'm happy with my decision.  For daily duty I get around 13mpg city and can get around 18mpg highway if I drive the speed limit.  It's slightly more miserable for city driving because it's taller and longer than the F-150, but it's the same width and has a better turning radius so the difference isn't as great as you would think.  I find it very comfortable when unloaded, certainly no worse than the F-150.  Even though power/torque are about the same as the 3.5 EB, the SD chassis is far superior for towing.  3500lb payload and 1350 tongue weight mean I just hook up the trailer and go, and never worry about how much I'm carrying.  It gets around 12mpg towing the trailer, and the 36 gal tank means much better range.  Even without the WDH it's rock solid when towing.

I think a F-150 3.5EB with max payload package would be ideal for the OP's needs, but they're rare as hen's teeth and command a premium price.  He could certainly manage without the max payload, but there's extra planning/hassle involved if you're traveling with a family of four and their stuff.  For similar or even less money, an F-250 with the 6.2L/6 speed is a much more capable truck that should also be more reliable.  If I had to do it all over again I would make the same choice.

Why not get a cheap easy car for the commute?  20 year old Civic, Corolla, etc.  My ND Miata gets most of my city driving.  I would quickly come to hate a full-size truck if I had to drive it around downtown San Francisco very often.

You nailed my issues- 8-900lb tongue weight and payload capacity - especially with camping gear, are my concerns. That's why I'm cross shopping the 150 and 250. 
 

Id rather do the commute and tow with the same vehicle, which pushes me toward f150. 

Here was the door sticker from the F-150.  Combined weight of occupants and cargo (including tongue weight) not to exceed 1610lb.

There's other ways that you're running up to the truck's limits.  For instance, rear axle max weight is 3850lb.  The truck itself probably puts 2500lb on the rear axle.  800lb of tongue load, 100lb of weight distributing gear... now it only takes a few hundred pounds of stuff in the bed to max out the axle.  You're also pushing the limits of passenger-rated tires.  Softer suspension.  Smaller brakes.  etc.  Can you run it overloaded?  I guess, lots of people do.  I never felt particularly safe in that truck when loaded close to the rated limits, personally I'd hesitate to go over.

IIRC there was a max payload package and a max tow package.  They often came together but not always.  My friend has an F-150 with max payload (over 2,000) but it doesn't have the brake controller, etc.  Both are pretty rare on the used market.

Sure, you could upgrade the standard F-150 and add E rated tires, air bags, aftermarket hitch receiver, etc.  You're looking at a couple grand in upgrades.  At that point you're probably saving money to get a lower end F-250 and still have a much more capable truck.

alfadriver said:

In reply to Teh E36 M3 :

Man, I had a long-ish message, and touched the wrong part of my screen and lost it all. 
 

Anyway, starting with the 3.5 turbos, either of the two versions in the last decade will do you fine. The engines have turned out to be really strong and with reasonably few expensive problems. And two things to add- the TIVCT version in the trucks is the same one used in the production GT, so the engine is very strong. Second, F150- risk that, risk the company. 
 

I'm sure many will chime in with economy with similar duty cycles as you plan. 
 

That being said, I am genuinely interested in the 7.3 Godzilla- and it has a good trans behind it, too. This engine exists because of diesel issues, so it's built to be bullet proof. I know it was built to run peak everything without any enrichment. The big issue I see with it is the package you get- I would much rather DD an f150 than 250. But you may feel otherwise. 

Both will do what you want, both are intended to take a lot of abuse. 

Thank you! I assumed despite 'the internet' that they had figured out any issues they might have ever had with the eco boost. I like the 5.0 because it seems 'simpler' on a relative scale with perhaps fewer heat related issues. That said, I would strongly, because I am an idiot, consider springing for the Ford Performance  5.0 supercharger kit.  

Teh E36 M3 said:

You nailed my issues- 8-900lb tongue weight and payload capacity - especially with camping gear, are my concerns. That's why I'm cross shopping the 150 and 250. 
 

Id rather do the commute and tow with the same vehicle, which pushes me toward f150. 

For highway commutes, the F-150 and F-250 were about the same for me in terms of comfort with the F-150 getting 1-2mpg better.  For city commutes they both suck, with the F-250 sucking slightly more.  If you have a dedicated parking lot where you work it's really a non-issue.  My neighbor has a similar Airstream camper to yours, they travel the U.S. for about a month every summer.  He made the same switch as me this year and said that it's literally life-changing on that trip.

dps214 said:

In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :

The first thing we did with my friend's f150 was rip off the worthless stock hitch receiver and replace it with a 10k rated aftermarket one (iirc there's also a version that lets you keep the stock hitch since it's semi-integrated into the rear bumper structure). The second thing was airbags on the rear axle. I honestly have no idea where we are relative to the payload capacity, but so far in probably >15k miles of towing we've had absolutely zero issues, including running on the stock tires for nearly all of that time. A lot of those miles have had 3 adults and a pile of luggage in the truck, and some amount of wheels/tires/jack/bikes in the bed. When you say max payload package, do you mean max tow package? Because I agree that that's an absolute must if you're going to tow anything more than like 50% of the truck's rated capacity.

The heavy duty payload package (HDPP) is different than max tow- it raises payload into the mid-2000lb range. Max tow I think is brakes and larger diff. Problem with HDPP is that it's only available on the XLT trim. I'll probably have to suck up a little more basic truck to get that. 
 

I may have to drive up to Chico to check one out. F150 XLT HDPP

Teh E36 M3 said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to Teh E36 M3 :

Man, I had a long-ish message, and touched the wrong part of my screen and lost it all. 
 

Anyway, starting with the 3.5 turbos, either of the two versions in the last decade will do you fine. The engines have turned out to be really strong and with reasonably few expensive problems. And two things to add- the TIVCT version in the trucks is the same one used in the production GT, so the engine is very strong. Second, F150- risk that, risk the company. 
 

I'm sure many will chime in with economy with similar duty cycles as you plan. 
 

That being said, I am genuinely interested in the 7.3 Godzilla- and it has a good trans behind it, too. This engine exists because of diesel issues, so it's built to be bullet proof. I know it was built to run peak everything without any enrichment. The big issue I see with it is the package you get- I would much rather DD an f150 than 250. But you may feel otherwise. 

Both will do what you want, both are intended to take a lot of abuse. 

Thank you! I assumed despite 'the internet' that they had figured out any issues they might have ever had with the eco boost. I like the 5.0 because it seems 'simpler' on a relative scale with perhaps fewer heat related issues. That said, I would strongly, because I am an idiot, consider springing for the Ford Performance  5.0 supercharger kit.  

Another reason that I got rid of the Ecoboost is that after 9 years, it needed a lot of little stuff.  It was leaking coolant at all the quick-connects.  It was leaking oil from the vaccuum pump at the back of the head.  It was starting to leak exhaust at the manifold and probably had a broken stud.  I probably could have dealt with all of this in a weekend with about $1500 worth of parts, but the fact that I wanted a more capable truck pushed me over the edge.